Request to split ArcGIS geoprocessing forum into subtopics

ChrisSnyder · ‎08-09-2010

Hi,

I noticed that the ArcGIS "Functions" forum topics have the following breakdown as of 08/09/2010:

(apologies for the poor formatting...)
FORUM----------------------------THREADS%-------POSTS%
-------------------------------------------------------------------
CAD Data--------------------------1.00%------------0.64%
Cartography-----------------------4.44%------------4.36%
Data Models-----------------------3.08%------------2.14%
Enterprise GIS--------------------0.79%------------0.42%
Geocoding-------------------------0.36%------------0.16%
Geodatabases/ArcSDE------------27.22%----------27.94%
Geoprocessing--------------------45.27%-----------48.01%
Imagery/Raster Data-------------12.61%-----------12.11%
Interoperability and Standards--1.29%-------------0.73%
Map Automation------------------3.15%-------------3.18%
Map Templates--------------------0.79%-------------0.31%
Nautical Mapping------------------0.00%-------------0.00% (Nautical Mapping?)
----------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL------------------------------100%--------------100%

Based on this summary, it is quite easy to see that the Geoprocessing forum topic has by far the most traffic in terms of thread topics and "chatter" about those topics. I would like to formally request that esri split the existing Geoprocessing forum topic into at least three subtopics:

1. Geoprocessing (General)
2. ModelBuilder
3. Scripting (e.g. Python) - Personally I would put 'Map Automation via Python scripting' in here as well since it is so related...

Another simpler option would be to just create a new forum topic called "Scripting" 🙂

As a dedicated contributor to the poorly organized existing Geoprocessing forum, I find it hard to continue my contributions when there is an ever-increasing volume of seemingly non-relevant thread posts and an ever increasing level of disorganization within (in it's current state) an EXTREEMLY broad topic that obviously needs to be split into at least several sub-topics. in it's current incarnation, it includes nearly half of all the posts in the entire ArcGIS "Functions" category. Seems a bit out of whack to me...

Also, I have to say it: I am baffled that there is an apparently new forum topic called "Nautical Mapping" (0 posts so far), and NOT a dedicated ModelBuilder or Scripting forum. Cmon... Nautical Mapping? :confused: What the?!?!

Please esri - I am not alone in my frustrations here...

DanPatterson_Retired · ‎09-07-2010

as I said way back up in this thread...

No...
Geoprocessing (gp and its incarnation within ArcMap) is the focus.

Modelbuilder and Python are the means to the end...Modelbuilder can be used in itself or, when exported, to see how Python programming can be used to exploit the gp.

the synergy between modelbuilder/python and doing geoprocessing "stuff" needs to be maintained. Many people use modelbuilder to export out to python. Having a separate Python forum would invite all the posters with non-geoprocessing issues to post there (ie the mapping module etc etc). Keep the focus on geoprocessing by whatever means other than arcobjects which is more the clicky, dancy, fancy stuff for those that want it. Arctoolbox provides the "nest" for models and Python scripts, subdividing further will no bode well. It reminds me of the division between Dialog Designer and the Avenue forum of yore

ChrisSnyder · ‎09-07-2010

Regardless of your beliefs either way, the vote tally so far (ESRI employees are not included):

Disclamer: If I put someone in the wrong category - all apologies.

NO SPLIT (1 vote)
----------------
Dan Patterson
Ted Cronin originally was 'No Split' but then appeared to change his mind here: http://forums.arcgis.com/threads/10092-Should-this-forum-be-SPLIT?p=32651&viewfull=1#post32651, so unless he says otherwise, I am putting him in the 'yes' category.

YES SPLIT (6 votes):
---------------
Chris Snyder
R.D Harles
Ted Cronin
Dave Bouwman
Chris Sergant
Sheri Norton

UNDECIDED (1 vote):
---------------
Chris Mathers

Personally, I think the tag idea has merit. However, with the new forum and resource center site in it's current state of dysfunctionality, the chance of an already busy ESRI staff quickly implementing a brand new method (that presumably requires substantial R&D) to consistently "scrape" and apply appropriate "metatags" to forum posts is exceedingly unlikely.

I think ESRI had it right in the old forum, and it seemed to work quite well. In the interest of helping posters and contributors alike, my vote is for ESRI to swiftly split the existing Geoprocessing Forum into:

1.) Scripting (Python)
2.) Modelbuilder
3.) Tools (ArcToolBox)

BTW: Cudos to ESRI for getting rid of the 'Nautical Mapping' forum...

DanPatterson_Retired · ‎09-07-2010

rename Nautical Mapping, Modelbuilder
and I will reiterate, those with questions "my exported script from Modelbuilder doesn't work" will post in both a "hope it doesn't exist" Python section along with the Python mapping folk.
In any event, I know which forums I will check and as the list gets longer, the chances of visits will get shorter for many people...train the dog 🙂

JimBarry · ‎09-07-2010

Regardless of your beliefs either way, the vote tally so far (ESRI employees are not included):

Thanks for taking the time to tabulate. Sounds like we're getting close to tying up this thread and taking some action. We just wanted to make sure anyone who wanted a voice got plenty of chance.

(ESRI employees are not included):

Well, for what it's worth, I've spoken with a bunch of Esri staff about this, especially those from the GP team and Tech Support, and votes are fairly well split. Even if you counted us in, it won't help the tally become any more clear.

Personally, I think the tag idea has merit. However, with the new forum and resource center site in it's current state of dysfunctionality, the chance of an already busy ESRI staff quickly implementing a brand new method (that presumably requires substantial R&D) to consistently "scrape" and apply appropriate "metatags" to forum posts is exceedingly unlikely.

Fwiw, I think the tag idea is a good one but only if done manually by moderators who really know what they're doing. I would not trust automation built on a rulebase. I'd wonder if the effort to continue dialing-in the rules and the error rate of miscategorizing is more than the effort to manually moderate an average of 6 new threads per day. And then there are those threads that would straddle the three forums if they were split the old way. No manual or automated process completely solves that.

I think ESRI had it right in the old forum, and it seemed to work quite well. In the interest of helping posters and contributors alike, my vote is for ESRI to swiftly split the existing Geoprocessing Forum into:

1.) Scripting (Python)
2.) Modelbuilder
3.) Tools (ArcToolBox)

Correct. If we went back to the old way, it would be those three.

BTW: Cudos to ESRI for getting rid of the 'Nautical Mapping' forum...

Well, not got rid of, just moved. It's the "Esri Nautical Solution" forum now, under the Solutions section.

JimBarry · ‎09-07-2010

...and I will reiterate, those with questions "my exported script from Modelbuilder doesn't work" will post in both a "hope it doesn't exist" Python section along with the Python mapping folk.
In any event, I know which forums I will check and as the list gets longer, the chances of visits will get shorter for many people...train the dog 🙂

Right or wrong, Dan's point above pretty much describes a primary reason for why the 3 old GP forums were collapsed into 1 new one.

So let me ask the group...

If we split this one forum into three, it may seem more right to put all Python stuff into this bucket over here and Modelbuilder issues into that bucket over there, but if you are using Geoprocessing in ArcGIS, isn't splitting them just going to make most users want to keep their eye on three forums instead of one?

I mean, I am really asking that in an open way, not in a "help me prove my point" way. My point doesn't count. I'm all for advocating that we do this the way YOU ALL want, not the way I might want it. I'm just trying to make sure I understand how you all use the forums.

ChrisMathers · ‎09-08-2010

Since I am undecided, Ill cast my vote for no split. I wanted rigorous tagging implimented but if that isnt viable from a development stand point I suppose I will just deal with it. I like having one GP forum for the same reason I use an RSS reader. It saves time for me. I would be reading the same number of posts but would havet to navigate to three forums to read them.

DanPatterson_Retired · ‎09-08-2010

I would also invite people who read this thread to examine the "ArcGIS Desktop - General" forum. In there you will find "stuff" which should be in Arcobjects, Mapping, spatial analyst, and a whole whack of "geoprocessing" questions. For the most part, I suspect that people put their question in the forum that they think will get the most traffic. By suggesting/indicating via popup etc, what is appropriate material for a forum, then perhaps we could dispense with "General" altogether and put an "Other" category way at the bottom of the list perhaps enticing individuals to place their posts in a forum that is appropriate. Further subdivision...based upon what is in the "General" forum...won't make matters easier.

So...Geoprocessing should be described (I suspect there a lot of people who don't have a definition, and I suspect people's definitions would differ). I suggest that this would include MB, Python and Arctoolbox (we will leave the ArcObjects people along) and the term relating to calculating, working with geometry and the like. There is going to be no perfect answer, but tags etc would go a long way, in this way, I could simply click on my preferred tag cloud and get all threads for my interest regardless where they were placed. Special interest forums for the extensions could then remain where they were and there will undoubtedly be overlap between geoprocessing and their parent forum. That's it for me on this topic...keep it coming

ChrisSnyder · ‎09-08-2010

Dan, it's funny since, before you mentioned it, I didn't even know there was an ArcGIS Desktop - General topic in the new forum! I guess that shows either how out of the loop I am or how poorly the new forum is organized. Probably a combination of the two....

Personally, I find it strange that ESRI designed the new forum in such an unusual way: With various elements of ArcGIS desktop functionality scattered about in different forum sections instead of one section called "ArcGIS Desktop" with all the ArcGIS Desktop-related forums organized underneath in a drill down-type menu structure:

+ ArcGIS Desktop
   - Installations
   - ArcObjects
   - Spatial Analyst
   - Network Analyst
   - Scripting (Python)
   - Cartography
   - Work Flows
   - Model Builder
   - Other (General) #Make sure this one is at the bottom, right?!?

Or maybe even...

+ ArcGIS Desktop
   + Extentions
      - Spatial Analyst
      - Network Analyst
   + Functions
      - Cartography
      + Geoprocessing
         + Automation
            - Scripting (Python)
            - Model Builder
         - Tools (ArcToolbox)
         - Workflows

Who knows...

One would think people generally know what software they are using (Desktop vs. ImageServer vs. ArcIMS), and it seems pretty logical to organize a forum in that way as well. I understand that many ESRI products share functionality, for example, you can use ModelBuilder with both ArcGIS Server and ArcGIS Desktop (no reason that a ModelBuilder topic from ArcGIS Server and ArcGIS Desktop can't point to the same "ModelBuilder" forum, right? Makes sense...). However, ESRI's interpretation of these related functions/topics results in something that, to me, appears very cluncky, confusing, and non-intuitive.

Perhaps ESRI staff could one day redesign the interface to create more of the drill-down/expandable structure based on Software? That would be very intuitive!

Along those lines, it's pretty easy to understand why there are so many posts to the "ArcGIS Desktop - General" forum (that should & could be put under one of the exisitng Function topics):
1) The current forum is confusing to navigate since it organizes the forum using this new and different concept of "shared" and "related" functionality, and not a flat and understandable software-centric aproach.
2) The "ArcGIS Desktop - General" forum topic is at the top of the forum lists: See http://forums.arcgis.com/ and http://forums.arcgis.com/forums/4-Products!

Question: Are all these ArcGIS Desktop-related forum topics really "Products" (they are all listed under the "Products" sub-heading)? Maybe I'm alone here, but when I think "Product" I think of a particular software, and not:

1) ArcGIS Desktop - General
2) ArcGIS Desktop - Extensions
3) ArcGIS Desktop - Installation, Configuration
4) ArcObjects - All Development Languages

Hmm... I'm confused.

DanPatterson_Retired · ‎09-08-2010

Chris et al. check this out
http://gis.stackexchange.com/
click on a tag and you get what your want, specify your tags of interest and you can ignore the garbage...no threading...just what you want to look at and answer...soooo the onus is on the user to tag their questions in the hopes that they will get an answer...crappy tags...no answers...a potential model BUT if separate forums are to be kept, then tags should/need be a must/wish/hope

JimBarry · ‎09-08-2010

Chris et al. check this out
http://gis.stackexchange.com/
click on a tag and you get what your want, specify your tags of interest and you can ignore the garbage...no threading...just what you want to look at and answer...soooo the onus is on the user to tag their questions in the hopes that they will get an answer...crappy tags...no answers...a potential model BUT if separate forums are to be kept, then tags should/need be a must/wish/hope

I think most who use them would say that StackOverflow/StackExchange is probably the best design for a Q&A site. Are you saying it's time to consider leaving threaded discussions behind and support only Q&A?