Thanks Bjorn. I can see a blank widget (no icon) in my app builder, but cannot look at it or edit properties, it displays an error when I click on it. I dont think the app builder changes my config files, which is a good thing. but if I want to look and/or modify the widgets in the group, I cant do it thru the app builder and only with the config file. not a big deal if everything is working, but kind of a pain if you want to use the app builder to test syntax in the config files. I am just keeping a copy of my widget outside the group for the meantime. thanks for the response