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How to “clear” the coordinate system of the “Map” to get it to “unknown” in ArcGIS Pro,

JamalNUMAN

For example, in ArcMap, the clear option is available and one can set the “data frame” to unknown. I couldn’t figure out how to “clear” the coordinate system of the “Map” to get it to “unknown” in ArcGIS Pro as this option is not there

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XanderBakker

I suppose there is a reason for that. You are not supposed to set the coordinate system to Unknown. I really would like to know why you would want this...

Below a method to accomplish this, but I urge you not to since it is not a good practice to work with the Unknown coordinate system:

Add a layer with Unknown coordinate system to ArcGIS Pro
As shown below, expand the coordinate systems of the Layers and you can add the Unknown coordinate system to your favorites. Now it will always be available to select.

JamalNUMAN

It appears that Pro fails to take the “unknown” coordinate system. As it is selected, it gets back to the previous coordinate system (as shown in the screenshots below).

What could be the issue here?

XanderBakker

I assigned Unknown when I had no information (even no base map) in my map. Probably the reason that you cannot set it is due to the information that you have in your map. Another indication that you shouldn't be doing this.

DanPatterson_Retired

There are lots of reasons not to perpetuate 'unknown' coordinate systems

I could provide more, but there is no good reason to provide an unknown coordinate system when working with spatial data, just lots of bad ones. If the coordinates are using a 'relative coordinate system' you can still tie them into know data.

JamalNUMAN

It appears that our life gets hard without “clear” option. Clearing the coordinate system of data frame or layers helps us understand the data we receive. It is very common in our environment to receive data with unknown coordinate system, then the fist step is to investigate the data and then to assign the proper coordinate system.

For example, clearing the coordinate system of the data frame brings the layer to their absolute location and thus we understand how they are different from one another.

DanPatterson_Retired

As long as you put a layer into an empty map (dataframe) you will know what it is or isn't

The first layer added sets it, unless it is set before hand.

The problem arises when people add other data first.

The simplest solution is to explore the properties before hand using python and arcpy in a script devised to examine data before it is even used or brought into arcmap or pro.

JamalNUMAN

This appears not to be fixed even in 2.3. “clear” tool is not there!

Why do I need it?

In the screenshot below, I have two layers, on in ITM coordinates and the second is in Palestine 1923 Grid. Now, how can I clear the coordinate of the map (data frame), so that I can see these two layers in their absolute values (as it is used to be performed in ArcMap since ages!)

I would love if this tool gets back!

GregoryLund2

Jamal, thank you for starting this discussion.

Dan, I appreciate your comments on this post, as i have the same questions as Jamal. I use the 'clear projection' as a stop gap measure to prevent 'projecting on the fly' in ArcMap, almost identically to how Jamal uses it.

My concern is how ArcPro knows which projection to use for the layer. If the projection (or coordinate system) is defined incorrectly, how would ArcPro know? Where would it 'put' the data in space?

It sounds as though it would project on the fly, to the incorrect coordinate system?

Agreed that determining the actual coordinate system ahead of using the data is the best approach. I do so, and direct my students to do so, however, this 'clearing of the projection on the fly' is a good stop gap measure to ensure that the data is lining up.

Thoughts?

GregoryLund2

I'm writing to ask... what does ArcPro do then? Project on the fly? Project in the Layer's coordinate system? I haven't been able to find the answer to this.

Ironic... I just uploaded a video about Coordinate Systems and Projections for my introduction to GIS course at the University of Washington Tacoma.

Robert_LeClair

So in researching this question a bit further, there is a bug number (BUG-000114029) for it although technically it's not a bug. As described to the customer "Unfortunately removing the ability to set 'none' coordinate system in Pro is a design decision. Having no coordinate system could lead to lots of problems..." The support call also references this thread as well. Lastly there is an ArcGIS Idea submitted for this item that is marked as Reviewed.

deleted-user-2Fg69EwaShGZ

Having an "arbitrary plane" or no projection is used when bringing in data from many data sources. It is important to have this functionality in the software to make it as flexible as possible for many different types of users and uses. Many spatial data outputs from other software don't always work directly with ESRI products, especially in Raster workflows, so being able to see the actually pixel coordinate in the image structure is useful and necessary.

And the real thing that annoys many many arcGIS users is: Why does ArcPro eliminate functionality that has existed in past software, but ESRI doesn't think is useful or shouldn't be there for unknown reasons? ESRI you should listen to your userbase a lot more. Many have been posting on forums like this for years about reasons why they need fuctionality, but it feels like you aren't listening or dont care.

Robert_LeClair

Nelson - as a Senior Instructor in Esri Training Services, I have zero pull/sway on the AGP development processes and do my best to answer customer questions on the ArcGIS Platform. Esri employees do read/review/provide input on GeoNet threads and do listen to customers requests for equivalency/additional functionalities in software development. The whys and how's of functionality being (or not being added) are beyond my control. Kory Kramer‌ is the ArcGIS Pro Customer Advocacy point of contact and is cc'ed on my response. Perhaps he can provide additional information.

GregoryLund2

Understood Robert, and thank you for your input. Coincidence, I attended Grad School with Kory!

Question... what DOES ArcPro do? Project on the fly? Put layers in their respective coordinate systems?

I'm guessing 'Project on the fly' is the only 'OPTION'?

Image of ArcGIS Pro, projecting on the fly. 🙂

Regards,

Greg

Robert_LeClair

Love the fly graphic! That's awesome! Small world too about you and Kory - very nice!

So yes, AGP does "project on the fly" as does ArcMap. From the ArcGIS Pro help -

"ArcGIS Pro reprojects data on the fly so any data you add to a map adopts the coordinate system definition of the first layer added. As long as the first layer added has its coordinate system correctly defined, all other data that has correct coordinate system information reprojects on the fly to the coordinate system of the map. This approach facilitates exploring and mapping data, but it should not be used for analysis or editing, because it can lead to inaccuracies from misaligned data between different layers. Data is also slower to draw when it is projected on the fly. If you intend to perform analysis or edit the data, then first project it into a consistent coordinate system and the same coordinate system shared by all your layers. This creates a new version of your data."

KoryKramer

Hi Gregory Lund‌! Like Robert wrote above, this is currently a design decision in ArcGIS Pro and is being tracked as an ArcMap equivalency issue over here: https://community.esri.com/ideas/17163 The mapping team is interested in hearing users' use cases for this functionality - some of which has already been provided on this thread. I'd recommend moving this discussion over to the Idea thread, with comments focusing on how you currently use the functionality in ArcMap. Thank you - and hope you are well!

GregoryLund2

I know this is two years after the fact, however, I do not think that Jamal (& Jamal please correct me if I'm wrong) wishes to utilize an 'Unknown' Coordinate system, rather... he (and I) would like to utilize the actual coordinate systems of the data/layers.
To me, what Pro is doing, essentially... is Projecting on the Fly, no?, rather than utilizing the actual coordinate system of the layers/data?

To Repeat my question from 15 October 2019:

I'm writing to ask... what does ArcPro do then? Project on the fly? Project in the Layer's coordinate system? I haven't been able to find the answer to this.

Regards.

Robert_LeClair

Gregory - here's the AGP workflow for project on the fly behavior.

When a new map is added to an AGP project, the default coordinate system for the Map View is WGS 1984 Web Mercator Auxiliary Sphere.
The first vector/raster dataset added to the new Map View defines the coordinate system for the Map View. (i.e. UTM Zone 13N NAD83 for example)
All vector/raster datasets that are not in the now default coordinate system for the new Map View (i.e. UTM) are projected on the fly to match the coordinate system of the Map View. (ex. uncoming GDB FC is in Stateplane NAD 83 Colorado Central "projects on the fly" to UTM Zone 13N NAD83) The coordinate system for the incoming datasets are not changed.
Any geographic transformation warning error messages are automatically resolved by AGP. In ArcMap, it would throw a warning message for the user to fix. Many people clicked Close not knowing what this meant.

Hope this helps!

JamalNUMAN

Thank you guys for the rich input

I need to re-confirm that we do still need the “clear” option in ArcPro. This option used to be in ArcMap since ages. It is a simple as this. I’m not sure why this should be very challenging for developers to have it implemented in the Pro

curtvprice

projection on the fly JPEG - yuck! Definitely going on a lecture slide!

KarlTian

Melita Kennedy‌

Hello Melita,

Sorry to bring this topic up again, but in ArcMap, the option "unknown" works so good for many many years, I really can't see how could there be "too many side issues" for that in ArcGIS Pro.

And there is another good reason for "unknown" to exsit is for local refence.

Some data uses local or regional coordinate system that doesn't exist in Pro. So we have to reset them to "unknown" and then define project to something that in the system. That way we keep the original coordinates(and it's location) put them into a new refrence without transformation.

To be clear, we always choose the new refrence with closest central meridian to avoid and minimal the deformation.

In fact, the entire support of coordinate systems has been declined since the good old ArcMap. In Pro we can still use a prj file to define local refrence, but not in Enterprise.

So not only we want a "unknown" option in Pro, we also want an upgrade in local refence on all Esri platform, if it's possible.

Thank you.

Karl

GregoryLund2

What he said!

NeilFordyce

Setting projection to unknown is a standard practise if you want to find out what the raw unprojected coordinates are. I used to do this all the time but can't in ArcGIS PRO and ArcMap 10.7.1 crashes if I do this.

How else can you check the "actual" raw data locations of imagery with swipe if you have projections and transformations set?

I see data sets all the time that have incorrect projection information. Load them into arc with no projection and you can see the displacement in the raw coordinate values.. beats removing the projection files...

Local planar two point grids as used in the Minerals and Mining industry cannot, as far as I know, be defined in arc so data from them often remains without a projection file.

deleted-user-2Fg69EwaShGZ

This goes back to the original point I was trying to make earlier in this discussion. The ability to have an unknown and arbitrary plane "projection" allows for the use of all kinds of data in the GIS. It is a powerful functionality that exists in ArcGIS Desktop (a rare +1 for ArcGIS Desktop) and allows the user to put any kind of data they want into the system. Taking away that functionality is limiting the users. There is no way ESRI can know all the ways their software is being used. Software should never be limiting just to be limiting. Put this functionality back into ArcPro, users will have to be knowledgeable about GIS to get the tools that require projections to function properly, and put this discussion to rest.

MargaretMaher

This issue was logged as BUG-000114029 in May 2018, and has been marked as "Not in Current Product Plan by Esri Development. However, effective with version 2.7 of ArcGIS Pro, it is possible to add data to the Pro project that does not have a projection defined. In earlier versions, a default coordinate system was assigned to the data - either GCS_WGS_1984, or WGS_1984_Web_Mercator_Auxiliary_Sphere - which were wrong in most cases.

The extent of the data which has the unknown projection definition can be viewed in the Catalog Pane in ArcGIS Pro, and with some preliminary research about coordinate extents for the area, in commonly used coordinate systems for the area, it is usually pretty easy to figure out what projection the data was created in. If nothing matches, i.e. CAD data, it may be necessary to create a custom projection file to align the data.

The fundamental issue to remember is that Project on the Fly works. If the data has a projection defined, and you have set the appropriate datum transformation, but the data does not show up in the correct location, the assigned projection is wrong. Clear that projection definition, and follow instructions in Knowledge article 000007880 and related articles to identify the coordinate system, or create a custom projection to align the data.

MargaretMaher

Since this subject involves my areas of specialization in Support Services, I have to wade in. One of the very common workflows Esri customers are involved with is bringing in CAD data - AutoCAD and Microstation - and overlaying or converting these data to GIS formats using tools available in Esri software or extensions.

In many cases, CAD data is created in a known coordinate system that has a WKID associated with it, and it that is the case, that's great. However, a lot of CAD data is created in an undefined local coordinate system, that has no relation to any known projection. In order to integrate these data into the GIS, the alignment issue has to be resolved one way or another. Here are the available methods.

1] Georeference the CAD file in Esri software (ArcMap or Pro). I do not advise customers to use this method, since georeferencing survey grade data changes the lengths of lines, and alters the angular relationship between those lines. Picture this with parcel data in a CAD file.

2] Create a custom projection file to align the data with reference data in a known projection. The custom projection file tells the software the location to draw the data on screen, without altering the geometry of the features. Chapters 4, 5 and 6 of my book "Lining Up Data in ArcGIS: a guide to map projections (Third Edition, Esri Press 2018) outlines this process in detail.

The other common occurrence with CAD data is that the projection is defined, but defined incorrectly - i.e. data created in a local coordinates then defined as State Plane for example.

Allowing the user to "clear" the projection from the data frame, either in ArcMap or Pro, is the single quickest and easiest method to determine if two data layers are actually projected to the same coordinate system. Do the coordinate extents of the data match, so that the data line up in an data frame with no projection assigned? If so, they are in the same coordinate system, regardless of the projection definition, which in any given case may be right or wrong.

In an ideal world, this would not be necessary, but we do not live, work, and do our GIS projects in an ideal world, so we need all the tricks available in order to make things work as efficiently as possible.

GregoryLund2

Great to see you commenting here Ms Maher. Margaret Maher

I ran into a related issue yesterday, a file downloaded from the Pierce County (WA) Open GeoSpatial Data Portal Pierce County WA Open GeoSpatial Data Portal (v2.1) that was NAD83_HARN_Washington_South_ftUS. When I tried to Project to NAD_1983_UTM_Zone_10N and/or NAD_1983_HARN_StatePlane_Washington_South_FIPS_4602_Feet, I could not get a Geographic Transformation to work (there was no dropdown to use. (using 10.7.1 ArcMap btw) thus, tried to Project without one, and we know what happened then... I didn't 'Line up Data in ArcGIS' :-).
I've spoken with Pierce County about this, who stated: (and arguably, this information belongs in a different discussion, but it is semi-related...

"Shapefiles have downloaded from Open Data in NAD83_HARN_Washington_South_ftUS projection since ESRI enabled native projections (2015/2016??). "

and:

"In this case, you may be the first person to discover the problem with re-projecting NAD83_HARN_Washington_South_ftUS using ArcMap."

"I would be curious if shapefiles can be re-projected using open source GIS software. It might be a good project for a student. QGIS is the one I would try first. "

For the record.

I'm still voting for Esri to allow the 'clearing of the projection' in ArcPro.

Let the user decide? 🙂

JamalNUMAN

Is there any chance to the have the “clear” command implemented in 2.5?

MelitaKennedy

Hi Jamal,

No, because we're in the process of finalizing 2.5. It is on my list to discuss with the map team for the next release--but only to discuss it! NO guarantees.

Melita

DaveTewksbury

Having a similar issue in ArcGIS Pro 2.5. If I start a new map, with no basemap, the default coordinate system for the map is WGS84 Web Mercator. If I then add a DEM with defined coordinate system NAD 27 UTM 18N I get a warning that no transformations exist and that data may not line up. If I check the coordinate system associated with the map after adding the DEM it is set at NAD 27 18N. If I then remove the DEM from the contents pane, the blank map retains the NAD 27 UTM 18 N coordinate system, as expected, BUT if I re-add the DEM again, I get the same warning that no transformation exists, which suggest that the map is retaining the WGS84 Web Mercator projection even though it is not displayed.

If I start a new map and before adding any data change the coordinate system to NAD27 UTM18N and then add the NAD 27 UTM18N DEM I get the same "no transformation available" warning.

However, if I start a new map, and before adding any data, change the coordinate system to WGS84 UTM 18N and then bring in the NAD27 UTM 18N DEM, ArcGIS Pro happily transforms the coordinate system and displays a dialog box that a transformation was applied. Checking the Transformation in properties it shows a NAD27 to NAD83 NADCON +WGS 84 to NAD 83 transformation was used.

Any thought why ArcGIS Pro is unable to transform from the default WGS84 Web Mercator projection to NAD 27 UTM 18N, or why when the new map has NAD 27 UTM 18 N as the defined coordinate system, it still gives a warning of no transformation being available when one should not even be needed.

Thanks,

Dave

MelitaKennedy

Hi Dave,

Is there any chance I can get the DEM for testing? I haven't heard of your issue. If it's possible, and the file's not too large, you can send it to mkennedy at esri dot com.

Melita

DaveTewksbury

Melita,

I think that the issue was a result of corrupted metadata associated with the DEM. I downloaded a “clean” copy and did not have the issue with the new dataset.

I have run across another issue with ArcGIS Pro that you might have an idea about. If I load the Continents file from the Portal it opens in a new ArcGIS Pro map but the outline of continents comes in set at 100 pixels which completely covers the continent shapes completely. With Symbology I can easily reduce the outline to 1 pixel which brings the map back to looking like it should. Question is, why the outline defaults to 100 pixels in the first place?

Thanks,

Dave

Dave Tewksbury

FAA Certified UAS Pilot

GIS and Technical Support

Dept. of Geosciences

Hamilton College

Clinton, NY. USA

NSWMaritimeAdministrator

I see this discussion has been running for some time, but jumping in to say that I too am an ArcGIS Pro user (just updated to v 2.6) who misses the option of clearing the map projection.

In Australia we've recently adopted a new national datum to compensate for continental drift that re-positions coordinates some 1.5m to the north-east. Further, there can be another 3cm difference in output values depending on which transformation method is applied to arrive at the new grid coordinates.

I've been doing some testing of Esri's transformation files using ArcGIS Pro and could manipulate the projection definition of the feature classes to get the result I want, but that seems counter-intuitive and could create problems later on if the correct projection definition isn't restored. So in the end it just seems simpler to bring the data into ArcMap to compare the various transformed datasets relative to each other and to see spatially the offsets - ie for QA purposes I deliberately don't want them automatically to align.

Further, as Margaret Maher has outlined above, my agency also often receives CAD data to be imported into the GIS and a quick, visual way to verify the coordinate system of the supplied data is very useful (a 1.5m shift is easy to miss and there will be plenty of non-surveyors among our stakeholders who may not even be aware of the datum change).

Maybe there's hope the feature can be included in ArcGIS Pro version 2.7?

JamalNUMAN

I have already created an idea here. I would appreciate if you could vote and provide your feedback

ArcGIS Pro 2.6: An option to “clear” the coordinate system of “Map” to get it to “unknown” as it is used to be in ArcMap,

JamalNUMAN

Hi Everyone,

I forget myself that I have already posted this idea in December 2017. This is why I got duplicate mark for the new one.

Please, vote here on the old idea (juts I made little edit):

ArcGIS Pro 2.6: An option to “clear” the coordinate system of “Map” to get it to “unknown” as it is used to be in ArcMap,

TamiShannon

Workaround:

So I needed to correct an autocad generated shapefile coordinate reference system. The CRS defined was not correct and I didn't know what it was supposed to be until I troubleshoot a bit. I used to use "clear" projection or "define projection" and then set it to "None". Couldn't do it in ArcGIS Pro anywhere.

So I created a shapefile in ArcGIS pro - and didn't assign any CRS. Then I saved "unknown" projection as a favorite. Then I ran "Define Projection" on the one I needed to have cleared and set it to the other shapefile projection.

Ran successfully. Shapefile has no projection.

Alternatively I guess I could have just deleted the .prj from the shapefile.

Regardless, Project/Map interface would NOT clear or reset to unknown by any means. Please bring this option back. It really does help when trying to compare two shapefiles without a known transformation.

I guess I will use Global Mapper for that workaround.

(Be careful, ESRI. Global Mapper rocks on imagery and is a heck of alot cheaper!)

ctalleygreenville

I just ran into this missing option today. We, too, need the Clear option for projections in Pro. I use this option like most of the others - a tool to "determine what projection/coordinate system are these coordinates REALLY in". For us, we sometimes receive data that has projection info set to one datum when really it is another datum. In other words, someone has used the define projection tool and defined it as one datum when it really isn't. (for SC is it HARN vs. not HARN which is not noticeable at small scales but is at large scales). We rarely receive "unknowns" anymore. I have run into quite a few people in GIS who do not have any experience with projections/transformations.

In fact, I was about to train someone in GIS on how to identify these issues with incoming data. I guess I will have to use ArcMAP!

We are never trying to use the Clear option for anything but data exploration to determine if there are projection issues.

I upvoted the idea.

Thanks,

Carmen

JamalNUMAN

Dear Carmen,

Please, vote here:

https://community.esri.com/ideas/17163

hope this will be enhanced in 2.7

KoryKramer

Hi Jamal - development work was started on the ability to clear the coordinate system of a dataset in ArcGIS Pro. However, it doesn't look like it will make it into 2.7. Because it was already well underway, I imagine it will likely be in the 2.8 release...

JamalNUMAN

Not sure if it's implemented in 3.0

jcokin1

I have been tracking this thread and in the latest version of Pro and I do not see this option. Any other feedback from developers?

Sammy

https://pro.arcgis.com/en/pro-app/latest/help/mapping/properties/specify-a-transformation.htm

do not transform1.png

According to this documentation you can select "Do not transform" for each layer in the map.

In TOC right click on the map name and select Properties.

In the Transformations pane select "Do not transform" from the drop down menu for each layer. do not transform2.png

I know this doesn't do what the original post was asking but it might help for those who use the clear coordinate system feature to stop the on the fly transformations for QC or other purposes.

TanuHoque

just to add a comment here to let everyone subscribed to this thread that the request is implemented in ArcGIS Pro 3.2.

Please see this idea for more info:

https://community.esri.com/t5/arcgis-pro-ideas/arcgis-pro-2-6-an-option-to-clear-the-coordinate/idi-p/934266#U934266

RTPL_AU

This is implemented from 3.2.
3.3 is current at time of writing this post.

Set the map coordsys to Unknown.

Help for 3.2:
https://pro.arcgis.com/en/pro-app/3.2/help/mapping/properties/use-an-unknown-coordinate-system.htm

JosephChampagne

Respectfully, setting a MAP projection to unknown is not the same as having the ability to clear the projection from a dataset and this is not an adequate replacement for the functionality in ArcMap.

At the very least, the Unknown projection shouldn't be hidden in 'Define Projection'; having to set a map frame as unknown and pass that through is a janky workaround. Saying this is 'Implemented' is a joke.

MelitaKennedy

Hi Joseph,

The original idea is to clear the coordinate system from a map (or scene) in ArcGIS Pro to match the same functionality from ArcGIS Desktop. We have implemented that. The capability is designed to see how two or more layers display relative to each other. If one layer has a defined coordinate system but you think that it's incorrect, visualizing the offset can help you figure out what the correct coordinate system should be.

If you instead want to remove the coordinate system from a dataset itself permanently, yes, that is better handled by the Define Projection tool.

Do you want to temporarily set a layer's coordinate system to 'None', while within a map or scene? We did discuss that possible capability while working on clearing the map/scene coordinate system, but decided against implementing it for a few reasons. It wasn't possible in ArcGIS Desktop. It would be difficult to implement because so many different workflows interact with a data layer. Sometimes they're interacting with the actual data set rather than the 'copy' of the metadata in the map or scene so we would have to modify all these workflows/functionality. It gets complicated quickly.

Melita Kennedy

JosephChampagne

If you instead want to remove the coordinate system from a dataset itself permanently, yes, that is better handled by the Define Projection tool.

From the dataset, yes. If this is the intended 'Implementation' of the ability to modify that property of a dataset directly in Desktop Catalog, at least let us select 'Unknown' directly in 'Define Projection' rather than having to pass it as the inherited projection of a map or another dataset that has to have ITS projection manually set as 'Unknown' separately.

Even lacking the ability to directly re-specify the projection of a dataset in Catalog makes this so many extra steps versus Desktop. When EVERYTHING in Pro is already so many extra steps compared to equivalent functionality in Desktop. If long-time users are going to be forced off of Desktop at least don't force us on to something that makes our jobs and lives harder.

AlvaOlsson

Hi
I'm facing the same problem but cannot add unknown to favorites or do anything. Is there a workaround or something I'm missing?

JosephChampagne

'Unknown' is only selectable under map coordinate systems. Once you're working in a map with 'unknown' projection, you can select the map's projection in other dialogues to inherit the 'unknown' projection.

JamalNUMAN

I tried the “unknow” option in ArcGIS Pro 3.4.2 and it appears to work fine.

In the screenshot below:

The coordinate system of the map is “Palestine 1923 Palestine Grid.”
The coordinate system of one of the layers is “Palestine 1923 Palestine Grid,” and the other is “Israel TM Grid.”

Now, in the case where these two layers are added to a map with the “Palestine 1923 Palestine Grid” coordinate system, they are aligned according to the coordinate system of the map, which in this case is “Palestine 1923 Palestine Grid.”
If the coordinate system of the map is set to “Unknown,” then the two layers will be displayed using their absolute units

ClearCoordinates.gdb.zip

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