Pros/Cons of using SQL Exp. (10.1Server Workgroup) as distribution and web editing DB

[CarmenDurham]

Hello all,

I would love to hear from anyone that is currently using any of the below scenarios - pros and cons you have experienced.

Web Server is 10.1 ArcGIS Server Advanced with SDE for Server Workgroup 10.1 also installed.

Background: Our main production database (SDE Enterprise) is going to be stuck at SDE 10 on SQL 2005 for several months and it really cannot take anymore application server connections.  Direct connect from 10.1 (the default) to a 10 SDE on sql 2005 is not supported - plus we have tried it - sometimes it will work and the next day it will fail.  We see why that isn't supported.

So, I am trying SQL Server Express with SDE for Server Workgroup license as a "distribution and web editing database" on this 10.1 Server web server.  We are fortunate enough to have an ELA to do this. 

Per documentation here:
10.1 help for Database Servers
we should experience no limit to connections through web applications.

1) is the above statement really true?  We can theoretically have unlimited feature and map services to this Database Server connection (SDE for Workgroup for Server)?   Only connections from ArcGIS will be for admin/maintenance.

2)  Our main goal with this is to be able to use feature services for web editing by the public and/or smaller projects by City Employees to edit their own data (with GIS to push that data back to production databases - method yet to be determined).  We do have one feature editing app running so we know it seems to work.  But is there a limit to the editing? Anyone else doing this with success?

3) I would like to explore using this SQL Express for our "distribution" database for web applications.  Vector only.  Shouldn't go over 10GB limit at all.  That way all data connections are outside the firewall.  Probably try replication or using python truncates and appends.  Anyone using this option?  Have you hit any problems?  I think one downside is that I may not be able to use spatial views but that can be worked around for this.

Any information on pros and cons will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Carmen

[ZacharyHart]

Hi Carmen,

We use a similar deployment with the exception of the edition: ArcGIS for Server 10.1 Workgroup Standard Edition.

When I first read you post, I (thought) I had heard the answer too many times before: "Unfortunately, you are limited to 10 concurrent connections against the entire instance...".

However, I just read the resource center help article you provided, which goes on to say:

With ArcGIS for Server Workgroup using , you can set up a database server and create geodatabases from within ArcGIS for Desktop that can be accessed by up to 10 users at a time, all of whom can be editing concurrently. When using the database servers licensed through ArcGIS for Server Workgroup,   you can also connect to the geodatabases using Web applications, for which there is no connection limit.

We have been working with AGS since 9.3.1, and that is the first time I have ever read that. In fact, the suggested strategy (from ESRI) was to expose (locally hosted, not over network) file geodatabases to push connection overhead down to them.

I have actually hit connection limits against our workgroup gdb and with only 3 production editors, I presumed the excess connections were a result of the currently exposed feature services associated with same server instance.

If that is indeed the case I can totally skip a step in our replication process (namely keeping a fGDB child around for web exposure; that may still have its place and advantages, but consolidating our service-exposed database would sure simplify things especially in terms of web-based editing).

I'll take a stab at your questions:

1)You threw a curve ball on this one, so i'm as eager as you are for a answer: 'Paging Derek Law?'

2)Could you expand a bit on the editing tasks you're looking to achieve on the client/user end? There are definitely limitations in regards to editing (if I understand your question right).

3)What were you hoping to achieve with spatial views (linking out to other tables?) I'm pretty sure that's only available at the Enterprise level.

[CarmenDurham]

Zachary,

Thank you for your reply.

Numbers referencing previous questions:
1) Yes, I had been reading various forum postings about the 10 connection limit after we had done the install based on the "no connection limit" in the documentation that you highligted. I was getting confused and didn't want to move forward with the expectation of "no connection limit" if there was indeed a limit!

How well has using a file GDB for your map services for just viewing purposes worked for you?

2) Editing tasks: There are 2 general ideas we have to start with:

We are hoping to have a type of "public service request" input web application similar to many of the examples out there.  Essentially where the input would be just point features with some attributes, maybe a photo if we got brave (and space allowed).

• Simple edits for projects City employees could edit from web application - for example, our Parking Admin wanted to click on a parking garage on a map and edit some characteristics as they change (like available monthly parking).  These are really just point features (they look like polygons to him because of the basemap being used).  At first, I think we would only want to deal with very simple feature types - maybe even just points. 

Where have you hit most of your limitations with editing?  We really wouldn't have anyone connecting to this DB via ArcGIS client except for maintenance activities.

3) We use a variety of spatial views in SDE to link to other tables in some cases and in other cases for filtering or CASTing a new field using existing fields.  Some current 10 web apps hit non-SDE SQL views that pull data from various sources on a frequent basis (CAD-Dispatch, Fire truck locations, etc).  I am pretty sure I will hit problems with those, but I was expecting that and have a few ideas if that is the case.

We are exploring a few different things with the migration to 10.1 since we eventually have to get all new servers and RDBMS upgrade.  We have quite a few Flex, ArcIMS (Yes, still here on intranet), and HTML/javascript apps working on 10.  We have a new 64bit 10.1 Web Server but are realizing that moving all those apps to the new server will hit some challenges b/c of us being stuck with 10SDE, 2005 SQL  for quite a bit longer.

Thanks,
Carmen

[ZacharyHart]

1) well, just when I thought I had a complete understanding of this, the language for 10.1 you cited makes me unsure. What we would need to know for sure is:

• are the 'Web application' connections unlimited for viewing?


• do the 'Web application' connections still adhere to 10 editing connections?


• Do the unlimited web-based connections apply strictly to web-applications hosted via a web-server or would you also be able to make unlimited connections from applications like ArcGIS Explorer Desktop and/or ArcGIS.com?

(want to wager on how long it will take to get answers on this?? I can do some testing on this and get back to you.)

2)  Much of the edits we need to accomplish involve significant polygon creation & boundary changes and have coincident lines and topology rules. Exposing that level of editing via the web is challenging to say the least. For you, sounds like the world is going to be your oyster!
The connection limitations i mentioned came about with (as near as I can tell) as a result of our main editing staff having a multitude of MXDs open against one database while another replicated database was exposed via map services; both databases on the same instance. However, that was at 10.0, and i'm not clear if the architecture of server has changed (well, actually it has) in terms of how connections are handled.

3)I honestly don't know much about spatial views but have you looked into exposing map services with OLE DB connections or SQL Query Layers? (the Query layers cannot be edited). If I were you I'd try to get connected with the SDE team; I have nothing but good things to say about that particular group at ESRI.

Sorry if I haven't been much help, but I'm very interested to get some clear answers regarding your same connection limitation question with Workgroup!

[CarmenDurham]

Zachary,

It is always helpful to hear what others are doing. If nothing else, you validated the confusion I had with the online documentation.

I would love to hear directly from ESRI regarding #1 -- What do they really mean by the one sentence: When using the database servers licensed through ArcGIS for Server Workgroup, you can also connect to the geodatabases using Web applications, for which there is no connection limit.

Does this mean unlimited Rest Services- Feature Services and Map Services? What do they really mean by Web Applications? Anything I have written in FLEX, javascript, silverlight? or does *unlimited* mean you have to use a web app/map from ArcGIS Online?

2) thank you for this information. Good to know for future reference. For now, all our topology and geometric network editing will occur within ArcGIS on our production SDE DB!

3) I'll have to look at these options when I am migrating those specific apps to 10.1. Some may not even need to be on the public facing server and just stay on the Enterprise SDE vs. having to be on the Express/Workgroup db. All a part of the big puzzle when migrating the Server to 10.1 without SDE going to 10.1

Thanks,
Carmen

[ZacharyHart · Accepted solution]

Carmen, well here is the answer direct from one of ESRI's solutions engineers (I believe that was the title):

(R)egarding the questions about number of web connections and editing ??? ArcGIS for Server Workgroup supports unlimited server connections of any type. However, if you want to scale editing via a feature service to a large number of users, Workgroup???s limitations of 1GB RAM and 1 CPU may present a challenge. I wouldn???t suggest implementing web editing against ArcGIS Server for Workgroup based on what I understand you???re trying to accomplish.

[CarmenDurham]

Thanks Zachary for forwarding this.  I was ignorant to the limitations of SQL Express on RAM and CPU.  This will be good to know when managing expectations on this end if we continue with this option for public input. 

Anyone out there using a SQL Express DB for a public service request type input web editing application and hitting issues (or not hitting issues)?

We got the idea from one of ESRI's webinars, believe it or not, to use the SDE for Workgroup/SQL Express option. 

I'll mark it as answered, although I hope more people respond.

Thanks,
Carmen

[NathanSommers]

Good Morning Carmen,

I was wondering if you have had any success with the web editing functions you were talking about giving some of the limitations of workgroup?  I work for a fairly small city (20,000) and we are considering suing workgroup for web editing very similar to what you were proposing and I was just curious if you've had any success with it?

Thank you,

Ian Dunn
City of Perrysburg, OH

[CarmenDurham]

Ian,

Well, thank you for reminding me about my own post as this will again become a hot topic around here in the next few months.

There was a push in October to enable a user to edit some basic information about point features from an easy web application which is why we tried this option.  In this case, the user that had to have it by October has never even tried to make edits.  *sigh*.

So, I cannot really tell you anything. 

The push to put something out there for the public to edit has been side-lined while some other projects became a higher priority.  I have recently been reminded about the public editing feature, so we will be looking at it again in a few months.

If you hear from others about using SDE for Workgroup databases for public based web editing, please pass along the information.

Sorry that I have no more insight for you!

Carmen