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Should there be a new &quot;Python Scripting&quot; forum?

ChrisSnyder

Should there be a new "Python Scripting" forum that is seperate from the existing "Geoprocessing" and "ArcGIS Desktop - General" forum topics?

For the "long story" background on the issue: http://forums.arcgis.com/threads/10092-Should-this-forum-be-SPLIT

The basic arguments are (and I am trying to be very 'fair and balanced' here, although maybe I shouldn't 😞

Yes: Python scripting continues to become an increasingly popular and important method to automate GIS workflows and with advances in v10, no longer applies to only geoprocessing tasks. Providing a separate "Python Scripting" forum will make it easier for knowledgeable contributors to reply to Python-related questions and provide a more focused and easy to browse knowledge base resource for all users interested in Python scripting.

No: Fewer forum topics is better, as many new ESRI users do not know what forum to post their questions under. Having fewer forum topics concentrates traffic and maximizes posts. The more threads in a forum, the better chance the thread will be responded to. Python-related questions are best left in the existing "Geoprocessing" and/or "ArcGIS Desktop - General" forums.

Python users (or would-be users) unite! Help shape the new ESRI forum... Vote!

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Accepted answers

All comments

JimBarry

Do we still need this to be sticky?

no. unstuck. -jb

ChrisMathers

Do we still need this to be sticky?

LornaMurison

1. If I am performing GP functions by coding Python and I have questions, would I search/post in the GP forum or the Python forum?

2. If I am using Python for Map Automation, would I search/post in the Map Automation forum or the Python forum?

I would say that if your question involves posting a code snippet, then it should go in the python forum. Otherwise, it depends... Pretty sure #1 would go in the python forum though...

ChrisMathers

WOO we win! Now lets not screw this up or we may not get the next thing we want. 😄

JimBarry

Ok, here comes the Python forum.   I certainly hope it's as useful as 85% of the active voters believe it will be.

If not, you bet I've got my Nomex jacket and socks ready...   I expect to take a lot of heat for this, but it's worth it.

But seriously folks, thank you all for your input. I'm sure you all have much better ways to spend you productive time, so the fact that you invested in this issue to help the community in the long run is greatly appreciated.

BDFL? Nah. I serve you all, not the other way around.   But as long as I can, I'm here to listen to what you want and act on what's best to evolve how things work out here.

DanPatterson_Retired

careful Chris, we don't want JB to get the idea that if he sides with you he can add his name to the BDFL list under the ESRI banner

ChrisSnyder

Why do you guys keep referring to the old forums as "broken" (besides the fact that it really is broken now that you can't post to it)? I thought that it was awesome! Ok, maybe a bit 1990's, and I do admit that it did lack the all-important emoticon functionality, which I have found to be quite critical. Never even crossed my mind that they were "broken" in any sort of way.

I am glad Jim (being a dictator of benevolent nature) has taken the "adaptive management" approach to solicit/implement ideas on how to make things better. It ain't my fault that most people are apathetic. In my book, apathy means your opinion doesn't count - sorry.

Election day is over, and the votes are tallied.

Time to act (or not).

P.S. In Jim's own words: "I.... love Python... and think it... should have it's own forum on... the 19th".

JimBarry

Way to go, Mr Jim Barry, seems a bit crazy that this hasn't been finalized yet, but then out of 31,744 members on these forums there are only 79 replies, seems like a no brainer on NOT implementing a new forum. Seems like the new forums were a replacement for the old forums, but if we keep adding new forum threads, aren't we going to end up with the old broken forums, I don't know, perhaps we should just have a good tagging system, and quality search, with a few generalized categories, however, I do see the ability to search by a specific category as useful, but if tagging is done successfully, this would be a bit redundant.

Close, but not exactly the same thing.

With the old forums, if someone wanted a new forum they just got it. No one was there to look at the big picture, nor ask those who use and rely on the forums. Untended gardens get overgrown with weeds.

That isn't the same thing as saying that if adding or splitting a forum has a strong justification we shouldn't do it. Extensions are the example I keep going back to as one forum splitting into 12 with the strongest justification there could be. And it's working.

But your point is clearly taken about slippery slopes. I agree with you there. We just need to be smart, know they're out there, and avoid those where possible.

BartHound

Way to go, Mr Jim Barry, seems a bit crazy that this hasn't been finalized yet, but then out of 31,744 members on these forums there are only 79 replies, seems like a no brainer on NOT implementing a new forum. Seems like the new forums were a replacement for the old forums, but if we keep adding new forum threads, aren't we going to end up with the old broken forums, I don't know, perhaps we should just have a good tagging system, and quality search, with a few generalized categories, however, I do see the ability to search by a specific category as useful, but if tagging is done successfully, this would be a bit redundant.

JimBarry

I am getting conflicting reports, you jb, says the above. This is what I got from Jack Dangermond at the user conference.

"at the heart and soul and center of ArcGIS is Python, a scientific programming language. Python, which not only gives a nice scripting and programming language but also connects to the open source world where there's interesting statistical tools and mathematical tools and modeling tools and it also opens up ArcGIS tools to that world, as well." nuff said.

Sigh, come on Ryan. My "just a scripting language" was in the larger context of the paragraph, comparing a scripting technology with the functional capabilities you can drive with it. It's not the same meaning as a standalone statement as you pulled it out to be.

Let's go folks. I'm trying to serve your needs and do what needs to be done to make the forums better and more useful. Dissecting my statements to imply a different meaning isn't helping solve the problem.

We all know what Python is.

LoganPugh

I would say that ArcObjects is closer to the heart and soul than Python. Python is like the eyes, ears and hands of ArcGIS. You can tell it what to do, it can see the data, and it can work with the data, but it doesn't necessarily have to listen to you 🙂

ChrisSnyder

Nice quote Ryan!

Python = The heart and soul of GIS

Not so sure, about the "heart and soul", but maybe if it makes it so ESRI can say "yes" they've embraced open source (well sort of) and at the same time still make $$$ hand over fist - Well I guess that's good enough for a clear conscience.

Heart and soul!

Go Python!

JimBarry

@Jim: Didn't mean to razz you too bad about "GIS in General". A little bummed that some get their suggestions acted upon right away, while others have to work a little harder and wait a bit longer.

Gotcha. You're right. But... Some ideas are easy to do, are unanimous or lowly-contested, and are low-no-impact on any other part of the system. I don't mind doing those right away. But, hehehh, some ideas and issues are none of those things. To deal with them fairly, we really need to sort them out well.

...even with the proposed Editing forum vote. Have you voted? There aren't any 'No' votes yet .

Looks like a no-brainer. I'll give that one another week. If isn't a wave in the other direction nor any deal-breaker argument the other way, we'll make an Editing forum. Hey, if we stay on this track, we'll find all of the major "functional" categories that GIS pros really use and the General forum will waste away. We can hope.

JimBarry

I think a forum for python scripting would be good for new companies that work with python!

Well in a way sure. Folks clearly want to ask, answer, learn, and help others with using Python. But that doesn't seem to be the heart of the issue of how to organize the forums.

Really what the issue seems to be is this. Should there be one Python forum for everything you can do with Python, or should the forums continue moving toward being functionally-based?    Meaning, if you're doing Map Automation with Python, use the Map Automation forum. If you're doing other geoprocessing related tasks with Python, use the Geoprocessing forum, etc. In the end, Python is just a scripting language.

Bottom line:
a. Is there demand for a Python forum where the techniques of coding in the language are discussed in the abstract?
b. Or is it more important for discussions to include Python in the context of what you're actually trying to accomplish with the scripting?

I'm concerned that those who are just quickly jumping to "I'm using Python, there should be a Python forum" might not be thinking it all the way through.    Again, I'm trying to stay out of the fray and keep my opinion out of this. But I don't want us to live with a decision that hasn't been fully thought through.

ThomasGowen

I think a forum for python scripting would be good for new companies that work with python!

TedCronin

Hope the beta testers do a better job this time.

Perhaps next time, you will beta test, so that it is better.

ChrisSnyder

Google-enhanced Latin speakers? Well then it's honorary/free... Also honorary for people that are old enough to have ever done GIS with freakin' punch cards, so I guess we are both covered after all...
😄

MTFBWY - I had to look that one up. I too am looking forward to that functionality. Hope the beta testers do a better job this time.

DanPatterson_Retired

Grief...again...are you telling me you have to PAY to get certified??? What if your first language is Latin? 🙂

JB....you promised...tomorrow is the day, ...may the force be with you!
(the new MTHFBWY Python/ArcGIS module will be released in ArcGIS 10.2 currently in Alpha testing which will miraculously put all posts into their respective forums which will total no more than a dozen and everyone will know where their "stuff" will go 🙂 it's been fun)

ChrisSnyder

first computer science course 1968...first GIS stuff was mainframe and on cards...

Mainframe? Cards? Dan, are you honestly claiming that practical experience is more important than a $500 piece of paper? If so, I hope you got my jest...

V_StuartFoote

Generally I would prefer to see the Forum content topics more specifically focused, both while monitoring specific forum threads and while searching with forum tools or from external search engines.

So YES - split out Python from Geoprocessing into a new forum

My two cents...

Stuart

DanPatterson_Retired

Grief!...You reach a certain age and exposure to GIS that GISP certified really isn't an issue...first computer science course 1968...first GIS stuff was mainframe and on cards...ahhh the youth of today 🙂

ChrisSnyder

@Jim: Didn't mean to razz you too bad about "GIS in General". A little bummed that some get their suggestions acted upon right away, while others have to work a little harder and wait a bit longer.

@Ryan: Dan isn't GISP certified, so go easy on him. You guys do have something in common you know...

@Ted: I'm not taking credit (or the blame). I think it was the 'Yes' voters/commenters that ultimately may(?) get a Python forum created - tomorrow's the 19th right? Not that I am counting down or anything

.

@Dan: Jim expressed something to the effect of he hopes everyone keeps on posting regardless of what decision he makes. If he doesn't split, I'll be kinda pissed, but I will surely still contribute. I'm sure we can all get past the outcome, regardless. I get your point about voter apathy - seems to be a common occurrence - even with the proposed Editing forum vote. Have you voted? There aren't any 'No' votes yet

DanPatterson_Retired

51 / 1131 votes relative to view is underwhelming and I hope that we don't end up with the arcpy stuff from this forum
http://forums.arcgis.com/forums/20-ArcObjects-All-Development-Languages

TedCronin

@Jim

I think if it has import arcpy in the body, it should be a part of the Python forum. I know from beta, we were putting everything in gp if it had anything to do with import arcpy at least that's what I recall. The other topics are a bit redundant at least to me.

Good lots of new votes. Thank you Chris for selling the category, if this goes through its all thanks to you.

DanPatterson_Retired

Ryan
So you are proposing that the forum could be further split depending upon the version of Python and ArcMap and/or whether the questions are pure Python related?

ChrisMathers

I think the answer to both depends on the questions being less general.

1. Posts like this http://forums.arcgis.com/threads/17229-Simple-question-about-using-variable-in-arcpy-tools deal directly with a specific tool, but are actually python synatx questions. The difference is that true GP questions have to do with how a tool runs and how the returned output can be used.

2.Map automation is trickier. It is defined in the help as GP so under the current generalization regime we should move it in here. I think it should go into the python forum. There are only 307 posts, less than one new post per day, and most if not all of the posts deal directly with a python module.

JimBarry

I am not sure about that, it will probably end up being moved to the newly proposed Data Editing forum
http://forums.arcgis.com/threads/17451-Do-you-want-an-EDITING-forum

Good point.

Perhaps I missed it when I asked before, but as for those who believe there should be a separate Python forum, I'd like to hear what they would say to these two questions:

1. If I am performing GP functions by coding Python and I have questions, would I search/post in the GP forum or the Python forum?

2. If I am using Python for Map Automation, would I search/post in the Map Automation forum or the Python forum?

I'm not trying to stump anyone here. If you're trusting me to make the best decision on what you all want collectively, I need to make sure I have as much relevant info as possible.

JimBarry

Not sure the forum needs another "general" topic, but then again...:rolleyes:

The idea as proposed was to have a place where big picture topics about GIS could be discussed. That is, GIS regardless of product or technology. Questions about professional development, GIS science, education, career paths, etc., anything other than actually using products, modules, functions, etc.

I don't know. It sounded like a viable idea and didn't interfere or overlap with anything else going on out here. I don't expect that it will be too heavily used, and in the thread I recommended perhaps better places to have those kinds of conversations than in an ArcGIS-based set of forums, but we'll see.

Not sure I'd get too hung up on the use of the word "general" there. 😉

ChrisSnyder

Or maybe even the recently implemented "GIS in General" forum (some interesting content there): http://forums.arcgis.com/forums/115-GIS-in-General

Not sure the forum needs another "general" topic, but then again...:rolleyes:

Go Python!
(and Editing)!

DanPatterson_Retired

I am not sure about that, it will probably end up being moved to the newly proposed Data Editing forum
http://forums.arcgis.com/threads/17451-Do-you-want-an-EDITING-forum

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