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ArcScene 10.1 near non-functional with TIN (face elevation)

MikeFutrell

ArcScene: I upgraded 10 to 10.1 and now TINs are virtually non-functional when symbolizing by face elevation. TINS of even just a few faces, created in 9.x, 10, or 10.1, give that all familiar "Not Responding" for minutes then does not display correctly. Forget about turning the model. Symbolizing by wireframe, aspect, or slope seems to work ok (but elevation is 99% of use). In 10.0 even my large TINs worked fine. So now I have a lot of broken non-functional work. Even simple v10.0 SXD files won't even open!! [no other hardware/software changes were made]

Anyone else experiencing this? Do I need to roll back to 10.0?
Thank you,
Mike

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DarrochKaye

My ArcScene 10.1 crashes as soon as I load any 3D-enabled feature class or shapefile. Completely unusable.

JakubSisak

Wow. A good thing I have not updated then. Using TINs is extremaly important for my work.

EricRice

Jakub,

The product wouldn't make it out the door if ArcScene crashed on ALL systems simply by adding a 3d feature class to the application. As for the TIN issue, I have no problems rendering TIN's of all sizes in ArcScene. Mike and Darroch should probably contact Esri Support so they can troubleshoot their systems. Below is a screenshot of the new LAS Dataset in ArcScene. It has ~ 144 million points inside. The default setting is to have a max point in display of 12.8 million. It renders fine and I can navigate seamlessly even after switching the default rendering (points) to be a surface using elevation - which is how a TIN would display.

Please upgrade (at your convenience) and repost your results to this thread. If I were seeing the same as others on this thread I would not suggest that, but I am comfortable going out on a limb here and saying the issues described thus far are isolated issues and not a trend in the software.

Best,
Eric

ArcSceneLAS_Display.jpg

JakubSisak

Please upgrade (at your convenience) and repost your results to this thread.
Eric

Thanks Eric,
That's a fair comment. I might have jumped into my conclusion too quickly merely because working with TINs is such an importatnt aspect of my work. I will upgrade to 10.1 on one of my machines, test this behaivour and provide my own findings.
Jakub

JeffreyGagnow

I have the same issue--

All available tin faces work with the exception of "elevation"--

It locks up for several minutes at a time--

I can still drape other things over the tin and that works--

I have an incident going with ESRI but so far no success on correcting the issue--

10.0 worked fine but this "elevation" tin is the only problem with 10.1 to date--

I have uninstalled and re-installed several times only to return to the same issue--

dlg

jornkri

Hi there.

I can also confirm that this strange event also happens to me. Cant figure out how to fix this. Every time i load a TIN model or converting from raster to TIN in ArcScene, the "not responding" dialog appears.

I wait for 5 min, and suddenly i see some of the triangulation but the software is totally locked (it's like it processing huge amount of data). After 5 min. I'm also capable to see the TIN layer in the TOC. The problem cant be my hardware. When i'm using v.10.0 there is no problem, it has started after I installed 10.1

Jorn

EricRice

David,
I had your incident escalated, and I just checked with the analyst and we are awaiting your data.

Jorn,
Can you contact Support? Or can you post a TIN here?

Jakub,
Have you had a chance to upgrade and work with your TIN's?

All,
We are very interested in getting to the bottom of the issue you are experiencing.

Best,
Eric

jornkri

Thanks for the effort of trying to fix this problem Eric.

I will try to contact the Support section.
I will also try to report the progress on this thread.

First, I did not manage to post the TIN file here, but I have added som photos of the failing process.

The first picture shows approximately 5 min after i have opened the TIN.
The second picture is showing 6-7 min after i have opened the TIN.

It seems like it is rendering huge data extremely slow, but in the reality the data is not that big. My hardware spec is rather good, so this make no sense.

-Jorn

Not_responding.jpg

TIN.jpg

PrasantaBhattarai

Hi Jorn,

Could you please share info on which graphics card, driver date and version you have for your machine?
One of my user who is having this issue has Radeon HD 7690 MXT Driver date: 11/28/2011 and Driver Version: 8.882.2 4000.

With his TINs, we tested this behavior on my machine (with NVIDIA Quadro FX 4600) and was not able to reproduce the issue. I am trying to gather as much information as I can to narrow down this issue and see if this is specific to certain hardware.

Regards,
Prasanta.

jornkri

Hi there Prasanta.

Here is the information on my graphics card:
-I'm using a XFX Radeon HD 6970 2GB GDDR5 graphics card
-The driver date is 07/27/2012
-And driver version 8.982.0.0

Thanks for looking into my problem.

-Jorn

BenHaas

I am also having this problem, but I cannot get direct customer support because I have a student license.

I am running:
AMD Phenom II x4 955 processor (3.2 GHz)
ATI Radeon 5750 (7/27/2012 driver update)
16gb DDR3 1333 RAM
Windows 7 64-bit

PrasantaBhattarai

Thank you all for providing information about your hardware.
This issue seems to be affecting only the ATI graphics cards. We have now been able to recreate this issue in Support using an ATI graphics card, and have logged a defect for this behavior in ArcScene 10.1. The reference number and subject line for this bug are as follows:

[#NIM085208 In machines with ATI Graphic Cards, ArcScene freezes or takes very long to display a TIN surface as face elevation with graduated color ramp.]

This bug is now being looked at by our development team, and they will take further action as necessary to address this issues as soon as possible. We apologize on any inconvenience that this issue might cause on your work flow and thank you again for bringing this issue to our attention.

Regards,
Prasanta.

jornkri

Hi,

It's great that you also have been able to reproduce the issue regarding TIN modeling and ATI graphics cards.

Do you have any estimate when this problem can be expected to be resolved?
I agree that this is a very difficult question to answer, but I have limited of time to finish my TIN model.
So do you recommend to reinstall 10.0 or wait for a fix to 10.1?

Very pleased that you take this problem seriously, much appreciated.

-Jorn

GIS-Cambria

I'm also running into display problems with an elevation raster in ArcScene. I'm trying to load raster elevation files (bare ground, or first return) generated from LiDAR. The area is approximately 700 sqmi. Rendering the image in ArcMap works fine, every time I try to add the layer into ArcScene I get a message, preparing <image> for display. The progress bar goes to about 33% and ArcScene stops responding.

Tech and Specs
In Task Manager, ArcScene runs memory up to +2GB.....
I've got a NVIDIA Quadro FX 4800 graphics card with the latest drivers (9.18.13.593) but that horsepower seems to add nothing to ArcScene.
I'm using AGIS 10.1 on a Windows 7 64B OS. My workstation has 6GB RAM and an Intel X5677 processor. This system should scream through this type of application.

Please help.... Are there recommended tweaks for ArcScene?
Is ArcScene the wrong platform for 3D analysis with raster data, if so how is a base elevation layer to be used?
I seem to remember ArcScene 9.3x rendered the same bare earth image without errors.
One last thing: the rasters are stored in a local usb drive inside of a File Geodatabase.

RobertoRossi

I have the same problem in ArcMAP, symbolizing a LAS dataset with TIN faces by elevation and viewing it with LAS Dataset 3D View: I have to wait a lot for rendering, and finally it doesn't work: I only see a static view with faded colour.

I have no problem symbolizing by slope or aspect.
No problem either viewing the elevation in a notebook (with integrated Intel graphic card).

The machine that has the problem has an ATI Radeon HD 4600 Series, with catalyst 12.1

Roberto Rossi

RobertoRossi

Using the driver to 8.670.0.0 (ATI Radeon HD 4650), witch seem older, instead than catalyst 12.1, it works!

GeospatialTechnology

Following on from this has anyone been having any troubles with arcmap in 10.1

It's taking unusually long time to save workspaces that would have saved straight away in 10

jornkri

Hi,
I hoped that this problem would be fixed when I installed the new service pack, but the problem is still there. Anybody have any solution? Or anyone know anything more about when this will be fixed?

-Regards Jorn

GeospatialTechnology

Yes I also still have the same issue even though I was told it would be solved in SP1. Come on ESRI!!

GeospatialTechnology

I've had a look through the issues addressed with SP1 and it looks like this issue isnt one of them

http://downloads.esri.com/support/downloads/other_/ArcGIS101sp1-issues.htm

EricRice

Yes I also still have the same issue even though I was told it would be solved in SP1. Come on ESRI!!

Hi Mark,

I had a look at the NIM and I don't see your name connnected to it in any manner. Did you have an incident with Esri Support that was supposed to be linked to this NIM? I'm curious who told you it would be solved in SP1. That wasn't even remotely possible. The NIM was submitted to Dev on 9/26/12, roughly 4 weeks before SP1 shipped to the public. SP1 was basically done before the NIM was submitted. It was being tested, certified, and a whole slew of other processes involved in getting it out the door. We don't just finish writing code, install it, then ship it to you guys without it being tested thoroughly. There can be two months from the time we finish a service pack, till the time you can download it.

I'm not on the team responsible for this NIM, but I know they are aware of the problem. In addition, the User Advocacy Group has flagged this NIM as High Priority (only a couple days after it was submitted) and they are requesting a fix at the next available SP (SP2). We know this NIM is impacting certain ATI card users, and that it needs a speedy resolution. We thank you for your patience.

Temporarily, you could convert your TIN to a raster and use the raster in ArcScene. I know it doesn't look the same, but typically you would be draping imagery/features on the surface anyway and not actually visualizing the TIN. Technically, you don't need any elevation layer in the scene; you can still set other layers to use the TIN/raster for baseheights.

Best Regards,
Eric

TiborLieskovský

Hi I can report same problem (nVidia works, ATI no). For us it is little bit problematic, because we are teaching at university and few of our "excersise" are focused to TIN and ArcScene, now we are not able to works with students. Please do you have some solution, or workaround. Thanks in advance

PiotrMaciag

Hello

Problem with TIN on ATI graphics card is not only in ArcScene. It's also in ArcCatalog on Preview -> 3D View. TINs works only in 2d.

ArcGIS 10.1

ATI Radeon Mobility HD 5470
AMD Athlon II P320

Regards
Peter

GIS-Cambria

@erictrice commented that converting a TIN to raster for use in ArcScene might work. I have an ATI card so that may be part of the issue. However, I will caution against working with large elevation rasters in ArcScene. My experience is that ArcScene will attempt to render a raster dataset and then hang up at about 34-37%. My data is coming from SQL/SDE with 1 meter pixels (3.2ft) covering about 700 square miles. For what it's worth I have found that both rendering large sized raster elevation files and rendering large volumes of LAS data as an LAS dataset simply choke ArcScene.

It seems to me that raster elevation display was an issue with AGIS10 and still a problem with 10.1. My suspicion is that about this time (AGIS 10) a decision was made whereby ArcScene became an in-memory application and thus introduced a problem with big files. Read the section about ArcScene in this link. http://resources.arcgis.com/en/help/main/10.1/index.html#//00q8000000sv000000
While working with in-memory analysis is great in theory, working with county wide analysis is stymied here. This is especially troublesome when attempting to use a surface elevation raster in the display or as input for either creating subsurface features or more detailed DTM information like buildings and tree canopy. It also seems to affect other geoprocessing tasks too. I've tried to run LAS to raster tools which processed for nearly 2 weeks before getting a result. I'm half afraid to attempt much more.

Please Esri, take the processing of ArcScene out of being a primarily memory based application and give it access to the horsepower that it once had. Perhaps a marriage of ArcScene and ArcGlobe into one product is to be considered too. But for now at least help us to work with what we�??ve got�?�

EricRice

Hi Steve,

The product documentation cautions against using large rasters with ArcScene in the link you provided. It's subtle, but there.

"ArcScene is geared for those with smaller spatial datasets who want to examine a defined study area."

"Since ArcGlobe is designed to be used with very large datasets....."

"ArcScene loads all data into available memory and uses paging files if necessary. This is one of the reasons why ArcScene is optimized for smaller study areas with less amounts of data."

For 1 meter data at 700 sq miles of extent you should use ArcGlobe probably. ArcScene has been an in-memory application since I started here at 9.0 and was probably that way since its inception. The issue is not so much related to the application loading things into memory as much as it's related to the application being 32 bit and subject to real limits on the amount of memory it can allocate. 64 bit applications will change this and improve performance (with large data) because more RAM can be snatched up. The application loading items into memory should not be confused with "in-memory analysis" which I would equate to using geoprocessing tools using an in-memory workspace. They are totally separate. Note, in-memory workspaces did not support raster data until 10.1.

In terms of LAS Dataset performance I have worked with hundreds of millions of data points in ArcScene using the new LAS Dataset and the performance is what is expected in most cases. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your source .las files are not local to your machine and neither is the LAS Dataset. If true, try creating another LAS Dataset with local .las files; I bet you'll see a big improvement. You should check out these help topics.

LAS dataset considerations - particularly the section on "Dimensions and size of LAS files".
"For best performance, the client machine should have direct access to data on local internal drive, not across network or slower external drives."
LAS dataset scalability
An overview of displaying LAS datasets in ArcGIS

Also, if you're just looking for a raster to be created from your source .las files, have you considered a Mosaic Dataset? It supports .las files as direct inputs (just like rasters) and will rasterize the points on the fly using user defined filters such as Class Code and Return type. The two week result you got (presumably over your network) could have been obtained in less than an hour using the mosaic dataset with your .las files. Additional time would be required to build overviews, but still faster than two weeks. See the LAS to Raster function which the Mosaic Dataset uses to produce the raster on the fly.

Best,
Eric

JennyAxelrod1

Eric this is a serious problem. I cant even get the tutorial files to work in 10.1. These are files that I installed from the installation set, so they should work perfectly. Its not a size of the file issue. Arcscene hangs no matter what I do and I have my virtual memory set at the highest possible to give it plenty of room to work. Please tell me we arent going to have to wait months for this to work, my project is time sensitive as are others. I am having the same problem rendering, loading files, and even trying to shut it down. It takes over my machine and its a new machine!

LenDesson

I too have noticed at 10.1 ArcScene is having problems with TINs that used to display fine.
Some will take a long time to load, other times just trying to change the symbology of the TIN will crash ArcScene.

PavanYadav

Greetings,
I work with the Esri User Advocacy Group, and I wanted to inform you that as soon as the TIN display problem (NIM085208) was brought to our attention, we started working toward its fix. We have a fix now which has been incorporated into the code. I am fairly confident that this fix will be incorporated into the upcoming release 10.1.2, which is planned to be available in March.

Eric this is a serious problem. I cant even get the tutorial files to work in 10.1. These are files that I installed from the installation set, so they should work perfectly. Its not a size of the file issue. Arcscene hangs no matter what I do and I have my virtual memory set at the highest possible to give it plenty of room to work. Please tell me we arent going to have to wait months for this to work, my project is time sensitive as are others. I am having the same problem rendering, loading files, and even trying to shut it down. It takes over my machine and its a new machine!

@Jenny, are you experiencing the problem described in NIM085208? Please note that NIM085208 is specific to ATI Graphic Cards and TINs.

Regards,
Pavan

Pavan Yadav | Raster/3D Development Technical Lead
User Advocacy Group | Support Services

TullyWilson

I'm having the same issue. My video card is an ATI Radeon HD 2400XT. My work around was to create a layer file with the TIN and change the symbology from an elevation face to some other face display since just the elevation face was causing the problem. Since I don't really need to see the elevation face, this works fine.

brandonolson

Lame!! Is there a solution to this problem yet? ArcScene crashes 100% of the time when I try to add a TIN...

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