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Create projection NAD_1983_CSRS_UTM_Zone_17N (WKID: 22617, or 22717) v6 or v7

MelanieWawryk

We urgently need the conversion from NAD_1983_UTM_Zone_17N (WKID: 26917) to NAD_1983_CSRS_UTM_Zone_17N (WKID: 22617 or 22717) v6 or v7 for Ontario.

This request has been logged as ENH-000171425, and while it has been marked as a long-term roadmap item, it’s critical to emphasize that the delay is not due to a lack of business justification but rather the significant development effort involved. However, this is a pressing need. NAD83 (CSRS) UTM v7 was released in March 2019, and v6 in 2017, yet Ontario—a large and key region—was somehow overlooked in earlier roadmaps.

We cannot afford further delays. Please prioritize this conversion as Ontario's operational needs are growing more urgent.

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Status: Implemented

Comments

BryanMc

Thank you @BojanŠavrič ! This answers the question and has helped me get the ah-ha moment! This will definitely help us prepare for our future CSRS and NATFR2022 adventures.

Bojan Savric

Hi @BryanMc,

Thank you for your questions! Transformations to NAD83(CSRS) v6 and v7 do not use their corresponding NTv2 velocity grids because those transformations were superseded in the EPSG Geodetic Registry (see EPSG codes 10529, 10530, 10534) by new transformation variants that use the latest NTv2 velocity grid, NAD83v80VG. This is how NRCan registered these transformations. According to EPSG, users should use the latest velocity grid since transformations with previous grids are superseded.

Because NAD83(CSRS) v6, v7, and v8 share the same anchor epoch, 2010.0, transformations from NAD83(CSRS) v3 produce identical results for each. We have included all three NTv2 velocity files in the ArcGIS Coordinate Systems Data so that users who wish to work with superseded transformations can create their own custom geographic transformations and ensure possible backward compatibility with older product releases, should we later add support for those superseded transformations.

I hope this answers your questions...

Thanks,
Bojan

BryanMc

@BojanŠavrič , we really appreciate this update for Canada!

We reviewed the Geographic Transformation documentation, and it mentions that NAD83v80vg is being used for all the CSRS transformations (v3 to v6; v3 to v7; v3 to v8). We also tested and it does give the same coordinates when transforming to v6/7/8 (and matches documentation). The Esri Coordinate system installer does install three NTV2 velocity files for NAD83v80VG, and NAD83v70VG, and NAD83v6VG files. However, only v80vg is in use. This means transforming from v3 to v6/7/8 gives the same results. When we use the full desktop NRCan TRX tool (not the web version), it can use the 3 different velocity grids (same 2010 epoch). This creates a bit of a variation b/w the software outputs (however v3 to v8 is the same in both software since both using v80vg).

We can see the difference in v6vg, v70vg, and v80vg is extremely small, but since they are all included with the Coordinate System installer, wondering why v60vg and v70vg aren't being used for the v6 and v7 transformations? Should the target frame match the velocity grid (v7 using v70vg)? or better to always use latest velocity grid? Otherwise, aren't they all just v8 with v6 or v7 labels? "There is no spoon"?

Sorry if I'm misusing some terms here and appreciate any feedback you may have.

PS. If not mentioned lately, thank you to you and your fellow creators for Equal Earth PCS!

MelanieWawryk

Thank you! Now the difficult task of moving the geodatabase to new projection. Layers need to be recreated in a new geodatabase since you can't change the projection on an existing layer so a huge task but happy there is a way forward.

Valeria Chavez

Hi @MelanieWawryk! This Idea was implemented at the ArcGIS Pro 3.6 release. See comment by @BojanŠavrič on the extent of the implementation of this Idea.

Valeria Chavez

See comment by @BojanŠavrič on the extent of the implementation of this Idea.

Bojan Savric

Hi @MelanieWawryk,

I have some exciting news to share! In ArcGIS Pro 3.6, we've implemented new transformations that support conversions between NAD83 (CSRS) versions 2 through 8 using the NTv2 velocity grid file—specifically, the latest version: NAD83v80VG.gsb (see Canadian Geodetic Survey's website for details). Although the NTv2 velocity grid supports conversions at different data epochs, Esri only supports conversions at the anchor epochs of the realizations only.

NAD83 (CSRS) realizations and their anchor epoch date:

Datum Name	WKID	Anchor Epoch Date
NAD83 (CSRS) version 2	1193	1997.0
NAD83 (CSRS) version 3	1194	1997.0
NAD83 (CSRS) version 4	1195	2002.0
NAD83 (CSRS) version 6	1197	2010.0
NAD83 (CSRS) version 7	1198	2010.0
NAD83 (CSRS) version 8	1365	2010.0

New geographic transformations in ArcGIS Pro 3.6:

Geographic (datum) Transformation Name	WKID
NAD83(CSRS)v2_to_NAD83(CSRS)v4_5	10708
NAD83(CSRS)v2_to_NAD83(CSRS)v6_4	10709
NAD83(CSRS)v2_to_NAD83(CSRS)v7_3	10710
NAD83(CSRS)v2_to_NAD83(CSRS)v8_3	10711
NAD83(CSRS)v3_to_NAD83(CSRS)v4_4	10712
NAD83(CSRS)v3_to_NAD83(CSRS)v6_4	10713
NAD83(CSRS)v3_to_NAD83(CSRS)v7_3	10714
NAD83(CSRS)v3_to_NAD83(CSRS)v8_3	10715
NAD83(CSRS)v4_to_NAD83(CSRS)v6_4	10716
NAD83(CSRS)v4_to_NAD83(CSRS)v7_3	10717
NAD83(CSRS)v4_to_NAD83(CSRS)v8_3	10718

ArcGIS Pro 3.6 is currently in Beta and available for testing through the Early Adopter Community. You can sign up using this EAC sign-up form. Since these transformations rely on on-disk grid files, you'll need to install the ArcGIS Pro Coordinate System Data, which is also available on the EAC website.

Thank you,
Bojan

MelanieWawryk

Try sending an email to morgan.goadsby@mnr.gov.on.ca and ask how far out it is, maybe knowing it is a requirement federally will light a fire under them.

Jeff_Lee

Thank you Melanie. FYI I am trying to meet federal guidelines for geomatic data related to flood plain mapping but won't be able to do it as we're using 26917 in our GIS system.

MelanieWawryk

Currently you can't do it without creating a custom projection and reprojector so not advised at this point. All unofficial from a source that is in the know but unnamed

* Province of Ontario is now working on a transformation from NAD83 to NAD83-CSRS V6 but have no official delivery date.
* They also hope to create a NAD83 to NAD3-CSRS v8 transformation.
* Probably NOT creating a transformation to V7 since V6 to V7 have an average difference of 1.5mm and V8 being released.
* V8 is being released by NRCAN now and they do not expect to see much of a difference between V7 and V8 either.
* Minimal difference between V6, V7 and V8 and all using the same epoch.
* Moving to CSRS V6/V7/V8 will be required to move to the next generation of positioning reference (NATRF).
* CAN-NET is currently using V7 but anticipated they will move to V8 in the future to support ON/Can initiatives

Jeff_Lee

Hello, can someone assist on how the information in the links provided above can be used in reprojecting data from the old NAD83 (26917) to the NAD83 epoch 2010 v7 (22717)?

Bojan Savric

Hi @MelanieWawryk! Here are updated links.
NAD83(CSRS)v3 to NAD83(CSRS)v6 (3)
NAD83(CSRS)v3 to NAD83(CSRS)v7 (2)

MelanieWawryk

Thank you @MelitaKennedy for looking in to it, the links in your post are not working, could you update them when you get a chance please? Thanks

MelitaKennedy

Thank you for adding this idea. We greatly appreciate it. We understand the urgency of this issue.

The Esri Projection Engine, and thus ArcGIS Pro and other Esri software, does not have all known transformation paths between NAD83 CSRS re-adjustments/realizations. For some provinces and earlier adjustments of NAD83 CSRS, we do support some transformations, but we are missing transformations for the latest versions. All National Resources Canada transformations that convert between later NAD83(CSRS) numbered re-adjustments use NTv2 format velocity grid files, which ArcGIS software does not support. We only became aware of the velocity-grid transformations when EPSG added the definitions to their registry in March 2024. For example, two transformations are listed below.

NAD83(CSRS)v3 to NAD83(CSRS)v6 (3)

NAD83(CSRS)v3 to NAD83(CSRS)v7 (2)

Proper support of velocity grid transformations is a significant development effort and we’re currently evaluating this work and timeline.