Georererencing strange in ArcMap 10.7.1 ?

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01-09-2020 02:25 PM
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New Contributor III

We upgraded from ArcMap 10.4.1 to 10.7.1. (not ArcGIS Pro, yet.)

In 10.4.1 georeferencing worked by adding the raster (we generally use .tiff files for scanned images) to the map. Then navigating to the general area of where the image would be located. Then clicking on 'Fit to Display' in the Georeferencing toolbar.  We then would add 2 or 3 (maybe 4) control points using 1st Order polynomial (affine). When things look good, we click on 'Update Georeferencing' in the toolbar and ArcMap would write out a .tfwx file for the image. If, at a later date, we needed to re-use the image, all we had to do was add the .tiff file to the map and it would snap back into georeferenced place.

Now, in 10.7.1, the 'Fit to Display' works, the adding control points works, but when 'Update Georeferencing' is clicked, the image is suddenly moved away from where it was linked to (often to locations many hundreds of miles away! - we're usually georeferencing images that cover about a 15-20 square mile area - 4 x 5 sections on a quad map, e.g.). I notice a .tfwx file being written out.  Restarting ArcMap and adding the .tiff file to the map it goes to the location that had nothing to do with the original control point links.  !?!?!

What's the scoop with georeferencing in 10.7.1?  It used to work so nicely before..

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Occasional Contributor

This only time I have heard of Update Georeferencing having issues, is when the TIFF is created by certain 3rd party software (e.g. Photoshop).  

If this is not the case for you, please contact Support, so we can look into this issue further.

Esri Support | ArcGIS Technical Support 

1 (888) 377-4575

Thanks!

Simon W.

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New Contributor III

Interesting.... A ot of our images that need to be georeferenced come from PDF files that come from: a) an outside party; b) in-house scanned documents where the scanner output is PDF; c) in-house scanned documents where the scanner output is a TIFF file.  As I implied in my OP, this was not a problem in 10.4.1 (before we upgraded to 10.7.1).

But, now I find that if I extract a page from a PDF and save it as a TIFF and then open that TIFF in Windows Paint 3D and simply re-save as a TIFF - that it works in 10.7.1.

So, it could seem that Adobe Acrobat is another '3rd party software' that creates TIFF's that 10.7.1 has issues with. The version of Acrobat I'm using (and others in the department having the same issues) is 2015.006.30508. I don't have the opportunity to try a newer version of Acrobat.

Presumably, the result of a support call to ESRI would be "don't use that version of Adobe Acrobat"....

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Esri Regular Contributor

George

If you'd send us one or two of your TIFF files saved by Acrobat, we may be able to determine what is failing.

In the meantime, does Acrobat allow you to save in any other formats?  JPG or PNG?

Cody B.  

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New Contributor III

Looked closer at our Acrobat.  Yes, it can save JPG2000 files - although it wants to set the extension to 'jpf' and ArcMap won't show .jpf files in the 'Add Data' dialog box. Does ArcMap have some way to add file types (like Catalog does)?  However, in the Save As ... dialog of Acrobat, I can change the extension to 'jp2' then the output file can be seen by ArcMap's 'Add Data' dialog and it brings in a raster that seems to georef just fine.  (Are JPG2000 files a recommended format, or are they fast becoming a legacy format?) I should probably experiment with JPG files

(pause.. while i do...)

Ok. JPG files from Acrobat seem to work ok. it's nice that Acrobat lets me select a sort of image resolution quality as part of the saving. And I don't have to change the file extension to get ArcMap to list it in the 'Add Data' dialog.

Maybe I'm old school - but I thought TIF (or TIFF) was a solid robust format for rasters. JPG files have that inherent noise in them (unless you crank up the image quality to 'lossless' or some such). PNG files were for websites where images had to have low overhead and the images were mostly line-art type (not continuous tone).

Cody: are you and ESRI-ite? I could send you a TIFF that I extract from a PDF using Acrobat and you could see what the problem is.

But for now, I'll switch to recommending our staff using JPG file and let them know they can set image quality to keep the jpg-jaggies at bay.

Thanks all for your suggestions.

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Esri Regular Contributor

George

Yes I'm with Esri.  I think you can upload files here but I'll send you a direct message w/ email.

You're correct that TIFF is generally a very robust and stable format, but there are a lot of unique TIFF tags, and it's hard for a reader to know them all or elegantly skip unknown tags.

As for JP2, I don't want to start an argument about pro's and con's of different formats, but our experience is that there are a number of API's for writing JP2 format, and in some cases they can be inefficient in the decompression (reading) phase.  I generally recommend another format if users have a choice.

Cody B

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Occasional Contributor

I have a little more testing for this issue.  I can reproduce this behavior under the followings settings:

- The TIFF already has a TFW before I start to georeference

- The TIFF file is read-only.

If this is the case that you are seeing, then delete the TFW that pre-existed, and rename your TFWX to TFW. 
Let us know if that solves anything.

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New Contributor II

Has anyone come up with a solution for the TIFF files shifting location when 'Update Georeferencing' is clicked?  I have several hundred TIFF files scanned back in 2017 that lost their georeferencing after a server migration. This issue happens about 50% of the time and it is very frustrating.

Thank you.

Julio G

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Julio

Can you provide more information?  

  1. confirm you're on ArcMap 10.7.1?
  2. confirm you have several hundred tiff files you've manually georeferenced, and you used "save" to create *.aux.xml files for each image (not "save as" to write a new image file)
  3. can you check to see if the tiff files are read only and you do have *.aux.xml files?  If not, the transform may have been written into the tiff header rather than a sidecar file...
  4. when you say they "lost" their georeferencing I assume you mean you *do* have the *.aux.xml files but they're not working properly?  (not that the sidecar files were lost)
  5. when you say "about 50% of the time" do you mean if you add 10 files into the map, 5 are correct and the other 5 are misplaced?  are they moved to (lat,long)=(0,0)?  some other random location?  when they move incorrectly are they aligned correctly relative to each other, on another part of earth?  Or are they out in space (outside the entire earth coordinate system)?
  6. when you see an image misplaced, do you still see it's previous tie points or are they lost?  Do you add new tie points, hit "Update Georeferencing", but they still go to the wrong location?  Is it a NEW incorrect location or they stay at the incorrect location where they initially load?
  7. Do you know if they all use the same transform (e.g. 1st order polynomial)? or could some be first order, some second order, some using spline?  Can you send us some of the *.aux.xml files?  (We may not need the tiffs)  

thanks

Cody B. 

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New Contributor III

My support call to ESRI about a year ago over (what sounds like) the same

problem produced the solution of “don’t use TIFF”. So we switched to

generating .PNG files for georeferencing and it’s been fine since. ESRI

asked to have copies of TIFF files that didn’t cooperate with their

georeferencing tool, but I would have had to come up with a

non-confidential TIFF, generated in our normal process, that broke - but

that was too much effort, so I never supplied a TIFF file that helped them

figure what they did to the georeferencing tool in 10.7.1 that made so many

TIFF files un-georeferencable.

We generated most of our TIFF files from Adobe Acrobat and that may well be

part of the problem. Adobe is constantly updating Acrobat and may well be

fiddling with their TIFF-output code in ways that produce TIFF files that

break ESRI’s georef tool.

I realize that switching to the use of .PNG image formats works for us but

may not work for many others.

George R

From: Julio Garrido <geonet@esri.com>

Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 7:06 AM

To: George Riner <riner@sonoma.edu>

Subject: Re: - Re: Georererencing strange in

ArcMap 10.7.1 ?

GeoNet, The Esri Community | GIS and Geospatial Professional Community

<https://community.esri.com/?et=watches.email.thread>

Re: Georererencing strange in ArcMap 10.7.1 ?

reply from Julio Garrido

<https://community.esri.com/people/jgarrido?et=watches.email.thread>

in *Imagery

and Remote Sensing* - View the full discussion

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