topic Re: Should this forum be SPLIT? in Geoprocessing Questions

Request to split ArcGIS geoprocessing forum into subtopics

ChrisSnyder — Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:30:41 GMT

Hi,

I noticed that the ArcGIS "Functions" forum topics have the following breakdown as of 08/09/2010:

(apologies for the poor formatting...)
FORUM----------------------------THREADS%-------POSTS%
-------------------------------------------------------------------
CAD Data--------------------------1.00%------------0.64%
Cartography-----------------------4.44%------------4.36%
Data Models-----------------------3.08%------------2.14%
Enterprise GIS--------------------0.79%------------0.42%
Geocoding-------------------------0.36%------------0.16%
Geodatabases/ArcSDE------------27.22%----------27.94%
Geoprocessing--------------------45.27%-----------48.01%
Imagery/Raster Data-------------12.61%-----------12.11%
Interoperability and Standards--1.29%-------------0.73%
Map Automation------------------3.15%-------------3.18%
Map Templates--------------------0.79%-------------0.31%
Nautical Mapping------------------0.00%-------------0.00% (Nautical Mapping?)
----------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL------------------------------100%--------------100%

Based on this summary, it is quite easy to see that the Geoprocessing forum topic has by far the most traffic in terms of thread topics and "chatter" about those topics. I would like to formally request that esri split the existing Geoprocessing forum topic into at least three subtopics:

1. Geoprocessing (General)
2. ModelBuilder
3. Scripting (e.g. Python) - Personally I would put 'Map Automation via Python scripting' in here as well since it is so related...

Another simpler option would be to just create a new forum topic called "Scripting" 🙂

As a dedicated contributor to the poorly organized existing Geoprocessing forum, I find it hard to continue my contributions when there is an ever-increasing volume of seemingly non-relevant thread posts and an ever increasing level of disorganization within (in it's current state) an EXTREEMLY broad topic that obviously needs to be split into at least several sub-topics. in it's current incarnation, it includes nearly half of all the posts in the entire ArcGIS "Functions" category. Seems a bit out of whack to me...

Also, I have to say it: I am baffled that there is an apparently new forum topic called "Nautical Mapping" (0 posts so far), and NOT a dedicated ModelBuilder or Scripting forum. Cmon... Nautical Mapping? :confused: What the?!?!

Please esri - I am not alone in my frustrations here...

Re: Request to split ArcGIS geoprocessing forum into subtopics

JimBarry — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:03:30 GMT

Thanks for your suggestion.   We're all in favor of making improvements that make sense overall. Community tools need to continually evolve to fit the communities they serve.

Interesting stats. But our objective should be to help keep folks with similar interests together, not splitting a group because one forum is a lot more active than another. I mean, we wouldn't combine Geocoding, Cartography, CAD, Enterprise GIS, and Raster Data into one forum just because they get a lot less threads than GP does.

We think you're right that over-generalization needs to be watched out for. But of equal concern is over-fragmentation. That's the problem we had with the old forums.   There were too many forums to learn, too many straddle threads, and too many posts to each forum's "...General" bucket because they were more active and it was easier than being forced to learn our organization.

But as you pointed out, of utmost concern to us are our contributors. Without them the forums have no value, and it needs to be easier for them to participate.   If we're out of balance here, then we need to balance it.

So, if we're going to change something, what does that change break?   Are there more users who are only interested in Modelbuilder, and more users only interested in Python, and more users only interested in GP in general?   Or are there more users "doing GP" who are interested in all three?   The answer to that will tell us exactly what to do.

Should this forum be SPLIT?

JimBarry — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:53:05 GMT

Is this Geoprocessing discussion forum too broad, too big, too general?

Should we consider splitting it up into smaller topics?

Perhaps:
a. Geoprocessing - General
b. Modelbuilder
c. Python
d. ...

Or what do you suggest? Or should GP discussions be all in one single forum like it is today?

What do you think?

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

DanPatterson_Retired — Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:27:58 GMT

No...
Geoprocessing (gp and its incarnation within ArcMap) is the focus.

Modelbuilder and Python are the means to the end...Modelbuilder can be used in itself or, when exported, to see how Python programming can be used to exploit the gp.

One could argue that many field calculation operations involving shape geometry be included here, but they tend to go to the ArcMap General category.

One could also argue that gp-arcobjects "stuff" be included here, however, I would keep the gp-MB-py grouping together.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

ChrisSnyder — Wed, 11 Aug 2010 04:50:43 GMT

One argument for splitting the existing Geoprocessing forum (or at least reorganizing it) is that it currently represents nearly 50% of all the forum threads/posts on the Functions topic. If you were a lumper, it could be argued that many of the other functions such as Geocoding, Map Automation, Interoperability, Imagery/Raster data, etc. should also be included as aspects of Geoprocessing. Doing so, however, would raise the "market share" of the Geoprocessing posts to roughly 65-70% of all the forum posts! Personally, I am a splitter rather than a lumper.

My suggestion is to keep the Geoprocessing forum as is and create a new forum simply called "Scripting". Keeping with the spirit of v10 (arcpy scripting being a major aspect), this potential Scripting forum would be the go-to place for posts regarding geoprocessing, mapping, spatial analyst, and geostatistical scripting.

Scripting (that is automating GIS "work" using a relatively high level computer language such as AML, Avenue, Python, etc.) is a central component of any reputable GIS. I for one am extremely excited that ESRI is putting a renewed emphasis on scripting in v10 (arcpy.mapping). Doing so is truly helping to rekindle the GIS Analyst caste that was, I think, somewhat lost when ESRI abandoned their old scripting languages like AML and Avenue and jumped head first into using ArcObjects and "real" programming languages as their default GIS automation technique.

Scripting deserves it's own forum.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

ChrisSnyder — Wed, 11 Aug 2010 04:56:57 GMT

BTW: I think Jim deserves a Forum MVP medal next to his name - almost 400 posts! Thanks for your all hard work with the new system:)

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

RDHarles — Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:35:22 GMT

No question that the "Geoprocessing" should be split up.

I'd break it down something like this (based on the users background):
1.) Python
2.) Modelbuilder
3) Tools (ArcToolBox)

All too often, I reply to what I think is a "python" post, only to find out the poster doesn't know anything about
python, or ModelBuilder for that matter. I find it very hard to tell what the poster is looking for in an answer and
exactly what backround/knowledge they have. I think having something like the above would help those who are
posting and certainly those who reply to posts.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

TedCronin — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 04:22:00 GMT

No...
Geoprocessing (gp and its incarnation within ArcMap) is the focus.

Modelbuilder and Python are the means to the end...Modelbuilder can be used in itself or, when exported, to see how Python programming can be used to exploit the gp.

One could also argue that gp-arcobjects "stuff" be included here, however, I would keep the gp-MB-py grouping together.

Is this Geoprocessing discussion forum too broad, too big, too general?

Should we consider splitting it up into smaller topics?

Perhaps:
a. Geoprocessing - General
b. Modelbuilder
c. Python
d. ...

Or what do you suggest? Or should GP discussions be all in one single forum like it is today?

What do you think?

Yes, I think we should keep the I would keep the gp-MB-py grouping together grouping, but please no ArcObjects, unless its using comtypes with arcpy.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

ChrisMathers — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:21:07 GMT

Well the best way would be a tagging/sorting system. Users are prompted to tag their posts and replys and then other users can sort whole threads by the tags within. That way if someone asks a question and the disscussion turns to python, anyone looking for posts with a python tag will see those threads only. This would be implimented as "sub-forums" so that users could view the entire GP area or only those posts pertaining to thier interest.

Sorry to be a fence sitter, but I think we should split and lump all at once! 😄

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

KevinHibma — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:20:34 GMT

I'm not voting one way or another, mainly because I see the benefits of both methods.

I just want to say that I see a good number of "workflow" posts...."how do I start this" or "how would I go about achieving goal X".
Very quickly someone will offer a "do it in ModelBuilder" or "you need to script that".
It would be hard for the original poster to put that question in the appropriate forum from the start. Or once they got an answer its now in a general forum instead of the scripting form. (And I don't say that with the thought of moving the original post...theres a lot of overhead on that).

The tagging idea (while I don't know if the forum technology supports it) would be a cool idea. The tags could give everyone the best of all worlds. One area for your GP questions, but if it ends up being a Python specific question, add the tag and everyone who loves Python can quickly find that post.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

TedCronin — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:35:38 GMT

...That way if someone asks a question and the disscussion turns to python, anyone looking for posts with a python tag will see those threads only. This would be implimented as "sub-forums" so that users could view the entire GP area or only those posts pertaining to thier interest.

Like a filter, that would be nice. Something that can be set, even on our original settings for our user name, where we set specific tags to "Look Out For". Not sure if that is what is in reference here, but do like that idea.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

JimBarry — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:10:01 GMT

I'm not voting one way or another, mainly because I see the benefits of both methods.

I just want to say that I see a good number of "workflow" posts...."how do I start this" or "how would I go about achieving goal X".
Very quickly someone will offer a "do it in ModelBuilder" or "you need to script that".
It would be hard for the original poster to put that question in the appropriate forum from the start. Or once they got an answer its now in a general forum instead of the scripting form. (And I don't say that with the thought of moving the original post...theres a lot of overhead on that).

The tagging idea (while I don't know if the forum technology supports it) would be a cool idea. The tags could give everyone the best of all worlds. One area for your GP questions, but if it ends up being a Python specific question, add the tag and everyone who loves Python can quickly find that post.

On the one hand, these forums do support adding tags to threads. Scroll to the bottom of each to see where they can be added.    As a practical matter, this would only be a strong solution if there were well-known and agreed upon (then learned and remembered) tag standards, applied to all appropriate threads all the time. How well or poorly this is done will determine how large the cracks are where threads fall.

That's why I'm thinking the most practical solution are either to keep the GP thread together as one, or to split them into two or three discrete and logical groups.   That way it's more plain to everyone which discussions go where, and no one has to remember if, when, or how to tag anything.

If we split them, I would recommend that we don't put the word "..General" into any of their names. What we saw with the old forums is that the "..General" forum ends up being the sock drawer.   There might be an MB forum and a PY forum, but they'll be an illusion as we all find that lots of MB and PY conversations (and General GP questions that straddle MB and PY) end up there too.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

JimBarry — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:12:41 GMT

Yes, I think we should keep the I would keep the gp-MB-py grouping together grouping, but please no ArcObjects, unless its using comtypes with arcpy.

Understood. There is already an all-ArcObjects forum, and it would seem logical that it should remain as such until the data shows otherwise.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

ChrisSnyder — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:43:46 GMT

I think that the tagging idea, like Jim hinted at, would be difficult to implement. For example:

1) Would a newbie forum user even know if/how/where to tag their post?
2) Would placement of tags be enforced somehow?
3) How would tag spelling and syntax be enforced (Python vs. Pie-thon etc.)

Many of us that contribute to the forum have a great deal of knowledge in specialty areas, and I personally feel that having more narrowly focused forum topics like:

1) Scripting
2) ModelBuilder
3) Geoprocessing Tools & Workflow

would allow both posters and contributors alike to more efficiently concentrate their time/energy to find the best solutions to problems in the shortest amount of time.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

DanPatterson_Retired — Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:29:17 GMT

See Bill Huber's August 13 submission at
http://forums.arcgis.com/threads/1887-MVP-Program-for-Discussion-Forums
for cross-link ideas

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

ChrisMathers — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:37:33 GMT

I think that Bills "cross link" idea is good but contains a flaw. In my mind I see this as implimenting a crawler in the forum that indexes keywords from the posts instead of (or on top of) manual tagging. I think the only issue with this is that if the crawler isnt sophisticated enough it may see "You could do this with python instead of ArcObjects more quickly" in one post and "You should really be doing this with ArcObjects" in another and would put both into the ArcObjects forum.

Another issue would be whether the crawler indexes on only the first post or on replys as well. Indexing both would solve the problem of a poster not knowing where to put their post, but could result in massive cross posting depending on how lively the replys get. A GP post could in theory wind up in python, MB, ArcObjects, and in the extension forums.

In the end this is suggesting a robust auto-tagging system with the forums being querys on the tags instead of being traditional forums.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT? YES!

DaveBouwman — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:51:02 GMT

Here's the thing - "GeoProcessing" as a concept has multiple implementations, and while many times they can be "equal" in terms of output, they are very different in terms of audience and situational constraints.

For example - in my opinion, ModelBuilder is evil. This may or may not be the actual case, but since I come from a coding background, I'm highly skeptical of any draggy-droppy code magic thing. I do however groove with Python, and massively appreciate the productivity gains as compared to ArcObjects.

And similarly, for people who come from a pure "GIS Analyst" background, never to have their minds corrupted with the various incarnations of ITopologicalOperator, ModelBuilder is pure awesome.

By lumping these two types of users and the associated tooling into one forum, you're doing a disservice to everyone. Forums only work if they are quick and easy to use, especially for the power-users who are likely to actually contribute answers to the conversation.

So - split'em...

Forum a) Draggers & Droppers (The Dark Arts of Model Builder)
Forum b) White space matters (Zen and the Art of ArcPy)

Cheers,

Dave

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

ChrisSergent — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:13:46 GMT

I would like to see Geoprocessing having a section specific to ArcGIS Server. Specifically I would like to see some ArcGIS Server Python examples.

Chris

Is this Geoprocessing discussion forum too broad, too big, too general?

Should we consider splitting it up into smaller topics?

Perhaps:
a. Geoprocessing - General
b. Modelbuilder
c. Python
d. ...

Or what do you suggest? Or should GP discussions be all in one single forum like it is today?

What do you think?

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT? YES!

TedCronin — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:53:18 GMT

Forum a) Draggers & Droppers (The Dark Arts of Model Builder)
Forum b) White space matters (Zen and the Art of ArcPy)

Now this I like.

Re: Should this forum be SPLIT?

DanPatterson_Retired — Wed, 18 Aug 2010 01:19:49 GMT

Forum a) Draggers & Droppers (The Dark Arts of Model Builder)
Forum b) White space matters (Zen and the Art of ArcPy)
Forum C) Far too much overhead (ArcObjects)

And a amplfication to b) syntax matters
Splitting is not an option, the user needs to be "trained" to formulate their questions appropriately.. with tags or whatever.